139 Wild Strawberries

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warren oates
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#51 Post by warren oates » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:25 pm

knives wrote:The problem with your theory though is that not everyone was watching from third or fourth generation prints on the initial release and given how spectacle heavy some of these films are (Wizard of Oz was made to be spectacle) to suggest it was made to be anything other than as pretty as a first generation print could muster is absurd. Also it takes a significant number of generations to muddy up 35mm to 16mm status and even then the resolution isn't the issue, but the actual degradation of the printed image which is fading. I love Bordwell, but that post is at best nitpicking some imperfections in the original film that no one working on it cared about.
If they didn't care about those imperfections at the time, wasn't it almost assuredly because they knew audiences wouldn't be able to see them? So far it seems like you're both mostly contesting the relative intended fakeness of painted backdrops, not the unintended visibility of things like hair, make-up (Sjöström's moustache inconsistencies referenced above) or support wires in The Wizard of Oz.

Also isn't the second-generation element in a purely photochemical process an internegative or interpositive and not a print, which would be at least another generation off? How could a first or second generation moving picture image have been played for an audience before the advent of digital?

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EddieLarkin
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#52 Post by EddieLarkin » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:36 pm

There's an assumption being made that these film makers even took into account the fact that generational loss would hide the "fakeness" of sets and props. For all we know, they would have much preferred to have presented prints that were struck directly from the negative (or even a theoretical projection of the OCN itself, post grading) and were unhappy about how much was lost in a typical "OCN to release print" scenario.

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warren oates
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#53 Post by warren oates » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:42 pm

There's room for debate about specific details, but surely not when we're talking about seeing prop wires? Otherwise you've just turned Victor Fleming into Ed Wood.

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FerdinandGriffon
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#54 Post by FerdinandGriffon » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:46 pm

warren oates wrote:If they didn't care about those imperfections at the time, wasn't it almost assuredly because they knew audiences wouldn't be able to see them? So far it seems like you're both mostly contesting the relative intended fakeness of painted backdrops, not the unintended visibility of things like hair, make-up (Sjöström's moustache inconsistencies referenced above) or support wires in The Wizard of Oz.
Again, I don't think it's a case of them not caring, instead it's simply a matter of them doing the best with the material conditions of production they were working under. Or of them not noticing these imperfections at the time of production.

A much more revealing example then those put forward might be Ford's Cheyenne Autumn, shot in 70mm but with significant use of back-projection and combined studio/location sequences. Even on the warped, faded print I saw a few years ago all this "trickery" was very obvious. The original audience were not spared awareness of any of this by the 70mm grain. Didn't stop the film from getting an Oscar nod for cinematography, nor from being a breathtakingly beautiful piece of work even today.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#55 Post by EddieLarkin » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:47 pm

warren oates wrote:There's room for debate about specific details, but surely not when we're talking about seeing prop wires? Otherwise you've just turned Victor Fleming into Ed Wood.
Well I dunno, have you ever seen a classic film from an original print, muddy DVD, laserdisc, VHS or SD broadcast that had visible prop wires? I'm sure I have. My impression was never that we could now see those wires because of superior presentation, but that they were always visible and audiences had more tolerance for them back in the day.

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FerdinandGriffon
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#56 Post by FerdinandGriffon » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:49 pm

warren oates wrote:There's room for debate about specific details, but surely not when we're talking about seeing prop wires? Otherwise you've just turned Victor Fleming into Ed Wood.
I noticed prop wires in a very fuzzy looking 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea print recently. Does that make Fleischer a hack too, or the giant squid sequence laughable?

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warren oates
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#57 Post by warren oates » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:53 pm

Most Ford films and every Hitchcock film are full of examples of the sort you keep coming back to. All of that relates almost exclusively to the points lubitsch has already made a page ago, about the visual storytelling conventions of the time. Not about whether seeing a newly restored 4K master from a 70mm OCN of Cheyenne Autumn might also expose other visual details Ford did not himself intend for the audience to see -- like, I don't know, a high power line in the distance of a shot that was only previously visible on the negative.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#58 Post by matrixschmatrix » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:55 pm

I think there may be an issue with taking a post-Star Wars mindset into movies made in an earlier era- I don't know that invisibility was necessarily the ideal with special effects, nor that audiences would be looking for the prop wires beforehand. I mean, look at the (to modern eyes) shockingly bad bluescreen work in the Powell The Thief of Bagdad, which is an effects spectacular- I think modern audiences have been trained by latter day sfx work to have wildly different expectations about what a trick shot should look like, and much greater consciousness about them in general.

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Roger Ryan
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#59 Post by Roger Ryan » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:58 pm

warren oates wrote:... Scroll back above and you'll see that this is how it started...
Actually, I did read about these complaints when originally posted...then forgot about them when I eventually picked up the Bergman film on Blu. After several viewings, there was nothing that was revealed by the HD scan that troubled me. The artifice is just part of experiencing a film. If some make-up or backdrop is too blatantly artificial, it might take you out of the movie, but I tend to give a lot of leeway in those regards because...well, I enjoy suspending my disbelief! So Sjostrom's moustache changes from shot-to-shot; this is a small price to pay to see that magnificent face so finely detailed that nuances of his actual performance come through like never before.

For the record, I'm okay with Warners digitally removing the wires from WIZARD OF OZ to help maintain the illusion.

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warren oates
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#60 Post by warren oates » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:09 pm

Like I said, I have yet to see the new Blu-ray, but I do agree with you that some of the things we're talking about are akin in their effect on a viewer to run-of-the-mill continuity errors (of the sort that sometimes can't or won' be "fixed" even in this brave new world of fully digital post), so that if you're paying attention to them, it means either your attention or the film's hold on it has failed. But there are other aspects that do have to do with the way films were shot and displayed at the time -- both in terms of the release prints' projected resolution and in the directors'/producers' conception of how closely and how many times audiences were expected to look at a finished film.

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FerdinandGriffon
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#61 Post by FerdinandGriffon » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:10 pm

Warren, I don't know how a DP or a director could calculate from set with any degree of accuracy or certainty that a minor detail would be lost in the effective transition in resolution from camera negative to 35mm release print. I'd be surprised if you could find a single recorded example of a director making that calculation. It seems like a big chance to take, or at least a very optimistic one. Far more likely that directors worked in good faith that their audience would allow a certain amount of leeway for artifice that was an expected and acknowledged part of the studio filmmaking of the day, whether in the form of back-projections or artificial mustaches.

What exactly is the complaint about the mustache, anyways? That it's a different style or length from shot to shot? Because it's real and time has passed between shooting sessions, or because it's fake and the makeup artist has screwed up and mixed up their 'staches? In either case, it seems like it would've been simple to fix if it had been noticed on set, not something that Bergman would have blithely left to generational loss to clean up.

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warren oates
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#62 Post by warren oates » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:41 pm

I'd submit that many of the sorts of painted backdrops we've been discussing, especially when they're used in more realistic older films (we're definitely not talking about expressionistic work like Marnie) arise from exactly that sort of calculation. They look fairly convincing in dailies, more so in a perfectly lit/timed master print and even less artificial in a release print. Except that some of them nowadays, when seen not just from our modern perspective but in pristine OCN scans direct to HD will, through an increase in visible detail alone, look a bit more objectively like 2D trompe-l'œil paintings and less like the relatively more convincing illusions they probably were in original release prints.

Or take the hair in The Sound of Music, which is visible on the negative, but perhaps not in dailies (just as fine scratches and film stock "hairs" sometimes are not, which is why lab technicians are often called upon to double check a camera negative) or on the work prints they used while they were cutting. Had a lab tech or the negative cutter spotted this, the sort of calculation you posit would have been easy, since no one else in the production was able to see it before.

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zedz
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#63 Post by zedz » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:51 pm

warren oates wrote:There's room for debate about specific details, but surely not when we're talking about seeing prop wires? Otherwise you've just turned Victor Fleming into Ed Wood.
There are people who watch films for the film and people who watch films trying to spot prop wires. I think most filmmakers back in the day were making films for the former rather than the latter constituency. They tried to make these things as unobtrusive as possible (and that's something that was always limited by the technology available, the budget of the production, and the skill of the craftsmen making it) and counted on a willing suspension of disbelief on the part of the audience to carry them the rest of the way. I don't think Fleming, on seeing visible prop wires in the rushes after doing all he could to eliminate them, would have just said, "oh well, shut down the production: this film can't be made yet." And I don't believe any filmmaker of worth was hoping against hope that the distribution prints of their films looked crappy enough to truly get their vision across.

Likewise Bergman in Wild Strawberries. This wasn't Ben Hur. He used tried and true methods to tell the story he wanted to tell with the facilities and technology and budget at his disposal. He wasn't about to spit the dummy and refuse to shoot a foot of film unless an entire fake city was built for him so he could avoid the use of painted backdrops, or go to the expense of nightmarishly complicated location shooting when he knew any sensible producer would have simply said, "uh, why can't you just do this shot with back projection like everybody else?"

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Sloper
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#64 Post by Sloper » Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:33 am

Since there are at least eleven forum members who want to talk about this film (possibly the same eleven who voted for it a few months ago), I thought I’d post a few questions here as well as in the Persona thread.

What is the purpose of the pre-credits sequence? Why does Bergman want us to see Isak at his desk, and hear him talking about himself and his life, before the main titles run, and before the first dream sequence? What first impressions do we get of Isak from this scene?

Parts of Isak’s first nightmare seem easy to interpret: it’s obviously about his fear of death, to some extent. But why the clock with no hands? Time running out, or something more than that? Why the strange figure with the imploded face, who deflates and leaks out into the gutter? Why is Isak dragged into the coffin by himself? And why is the whole scene shot in such glaringly bright light?

Isak decides to drive to Lund primarily, I think, because he wants to make a few stops along the way: at his family’s old summer house, at the place where he had his first practice, and at his mother’s house. Why did his nightmare prompt this decision? What is he hoping to accomplish or discover during this journey?

What does he in fact accomplish and discover? What do the unplanned elements in his trip – principally Marianne and the five hitch-hikers – add to it?

During his vision at the summer house, Isak apparently sees events that he could not have seen at the time, because he was out on the boat with his parents. Did these things really happen, or are they a product of Isak’s imagination? Bergman often plays with the blurred lines between fantasy and reality (and art), so I realise it’s not a case of either/or, but it seems like a question worth asking.

Why is this vision prompted by the ‘smultronstället’ (wild strawberry patch)? This is the real title of the film, which is subtly different from ‘Wild Strawberries’. What does this place mean to Isak, and does the vision he has of Sara and Sigfrid help us to understand the film’s title? In his reminiscence at the end of the film, Isak is back in the wild strawberry patch, and Sara tells him there are no strawberries left. I guess this is because she picked them all for Uncle Aron, but is there any deeper significance to this detail?

After his second nightmare, Isak comments that the unhappy couple they briefly picked up earlier reminded him of his own marriage, and this serves as a partial explanation for why those two played such prominent roles in the nightmare. It’s not a full explanation, though: why is it appropriate for Alman to be the coldly punitive examiner here, and Berit the seemingly dead patient? When Isak watches his wife after she has been raped, what she says about him seems to imply a different set of problems from the ones that afflict the Almans, so what is the connection here?

Bergman said (I think in the filmed introduction), that he began Wild Strawberres thinking that it was about his own father, but that it ended up being more about Victor Sjöström. First, how does it work as a film about a father? Fanny and Alexander also explores Bergman’s ambivalent attitude towards his father, who in that film is split into two figures, one impotent but benevolent, the other virile but abusive. Are similar themes being explored through the characterisation of Isak Borg?

Bergman also said (I think in Ingmar Bergman Makes a Movie) that his films about faith were on some level about the struggle to come to terms with ‘the father’, the question of whether this father was benevolent or a spider-god, or whether he really exists at all. And the question of religious faith crops up in Wild Strawberries, in the argument between Anders and Viktor. So what bearing does this film have on Bergman’s ongoing discussion about the nature and existence of God?

In what way can it also be seen as a film about Victor Sjöström? What does he bring to the film, and how does Bergman’s hero-worship of this man (especially as the director of The Phantom Carriage) affect the tone and content of Wild Strawberries?

How do you interpret the film’s conclusion? Why is Isak still his ‘old self’ in this memory of his youth? Given his evidently cold relationship with his mother, and his presumably cold relationship with his father, why does this memory of finding his parents and seeing them from a distance bring him such peace of mind?

When I first saw this film, I half-expected Isak to die at the end, perhaps in his bed at this peaceful moment. But he just clears his throat and settles down to sleep, and of course must have lived at least long enough to write out this account of his journey. What is Bergman suggesting here about Isak’s future? What is the hopeful tone of this ending grounded upon?

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Sloper
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#65 Post by Sloper » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:32 am

I'd be really interested to hear from people who are passionate about this film - don't get me wrong, I think it's great and I always enjoy re-watching it. But somehow it leaves me cold in a way I'm not sure it's supposed to. It's just never quite as moving as I would expect a story like this to be. Although Bergman is brilliant at portraying and exploring extreme emotional states, I don't think pathos is his strong point. Parts of Cries and Whispers, especially the ending, do sort of bring tears to my eyes, but mainly because of Harriet Andersson's performance.

My favourite part of Wild Strawberries, and the one scene I do find deeply touching, is the final waking dream sequence, where Isak sees his parents. For a while, the effectiveness of this ending puzzled me, because the evidence would seem to suggest that these parents were rather cold and distant. They look distant from each other, as well as from him. Marianne says that Isak and his mother seem 'light years apart' when she sees them together, and worries that this same distance exists between Isak and Evald, and will in turn exist between Evald and his child.

At the end, Isak appears to be thawing, and evidently intends to talk to Evald again about the money he owes him. Despite her valid criticisms of him, Marianne says she likes him, and he says he likes her. Her marriage to Evald appears to be on the mend, and Evald may be able to avoid some of Isak's mistakes - which would make Isak happy, of course. He lost Sara forever, but another, identical Sara has just serenaded him at his window, and has told him that she loves him most of all - a sweet gesture, and (I think) not entirely a joke. His cousin Sara is then kinder to him in his daydream, or recollection, than she was in his earlier nightmare.

Then when he sees his parents, the look on his face suggests relief at having found them - he is connected to them, even if at a distance - and also a very sincere and deep love for them. Whatever his parents' faults, he really did love them. Whatever his faults as a father, he really does love Evald. And by the same token, and just as Marianne has displayed a capacity to love him in spite of everything, he knows that Evald loves him as well.

It's actually a lot like the hopeful final scene of Through a Glass Darkly, in its tentative affirmation that some form of meaningful love can exist even in the most dysfunctional relationships. And it's not trite or sentimental: Isak doesn't remember some warm, affectionate embrace he got from his parents, and his memory is as much a reminder of what was missing from these family bonds as it is of the love upon which those bonds were founded. Perhaps that's why Bergman doesn't do pathos so well - he's too good at encompassing the nuances of human experience, and unwilling to simplify the situation so as to tug at our heart-strings.

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domino harvey
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Re: 139 Wild Strawberries

#66 Post by domino harvey » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:34 pm


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