411 Berlin Alexanderplatz

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markhax
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#301 Post by markhax » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:45 am

Lemmy Caution wrote:Fassbinder tries a number of techniques in an attempt to convey the collage style of the Doblin novel, but for me these were only partially successful. More often they feel like intrusions or interruptions.

Would be interested to know what others are getting out of Berlin Alexanderplatz and from Franz Biberkopf.
I have now watched seven episodes--this thing is intense, one a day is just right for me! Standing on its own, it's certainly gripping. But I agree with you about the only partial success of the adaptation of the collage effect to the film. (The most Döblinesque thing in that regard is the wonderful visual and aural montage of the opening credits.) Some early reviewers commented critically that Fassbinder had psychologized this modernist novel, THE German modernist novel, and made it into a melodrama. Of course, melodrama was what Fassbinder wanted in film, and it gives the story of Franz Biberkopf a rather different character. The changes he makes in the story are interesting for what they reveal about Fassbinder and what matters to him in the story and, more generally, as a filmmaker.

While the collage aspect is, inevitably, reduced, Fassbinder often takes a few lines from Döblin's novel and makes an extended episode of it, or even invents something. One example is Cilly going back to Reinhold after Franz disappears. It is clear in the novel that she is still attracted to Reinhold, and he tells her he has a girl now but will be available next month, but nothing comes of it and she doesn't move in with him, as she does in the film. And she doesn't later see Franz and discover he is alive while she is singing in a cabaret, and then angrily confront Reinhold. She just disappears from the story.

Probably the biggest difference so far is how Fassbinder condenses Book Six of the novel, which deals with the immediate aftermath of the 'accident'. In the book Franz goes through a weeks-long period of despondency. After spending two weeks in a hospital two hours away in Magdeburg, where he is taken by Eva and Herbert so that the Berlin police don't get wind of the incident, he is moved to their place. They don't understand what happened. He tells them nothing. They persist in trying to get to the bottom of the story. Franz is in despair, he weeps a lot: he is a cripple, Herbert describes him as a 'half-corpse'. Only when Eva and Herbert go to his old apartment to get his things, do they learn of his involvement with Pums; the landlady (who is nameless, a cipher in the novel; RWF fleshes her out into a character) tells them that Pums's people have been inquiring about Franz every couple of days--since they have no idea whether he is dead or alive and they have something to fear. It's only then that Herbert and Eva realize that Franz's 'accident' had something to do with Pums. This whole thing is telescoped by Fassbinder. When we see Franz for the first time after the accident he seems in good spirits, reconciled to his condition as an amputee, cheerfully reflecting on his time in prison, and how easy it was to live without women, and then talking nostalgically about his old girlfriend Ida, whom, let us not forget, he beat to death! In Fassbinder's film, Franz's recovery appears to have been painless, a non-event. It is a central episode in the novel.

I find the performance by Günther Lamprecht extraordinary, even more so when you consider that there were only a couple of takes for most of the scenes. The scene in episode seven, where he conducts a conversation with his three glasses of beer and his schnaps is brilliantly done. Gottfried John as Reinhold is no less impressive--surely one of the creepiest characters in cinema!

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Lemmy Caution
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#302 Post by Lemmy Caution » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:29 pm

In the novel, what is the motivation for Reinhold pushing Franz out of the car? In the Jutzi version it is simply that the gang mistakenly believes they are being followed by police and erroneously conclude that Franz informed on them. Very straight-forward.

Fassbinder weaves a complicated web of ambiguity. Possibilities include:

* Reinhold is angry that Franz is no longer obeying him, refusing to continue to do Reinhold's bidding with the unwanted ladies.
* There is a psycho-sexual drama going on, with Reinhold in some way jealous of Franz's potency/success with Reinhold's cast-off women.
* Reinhold is upset with Franz's incompetence and stupidity as the lookout, which might have endangered the burglary.
* Reinhold's MO is to use and then discard people, and he does this with Franz in a particularly brutal fashion because of any one of the above reasons.

At the end, Fassbinder unconvincingly throws out the extra (Jutzi) possibility that Franz informed on the gang. This seems slipshod and doesn't add up since Franz was recruited into the heist at the last minute and was unaware of what was going to go down, or the location.

Is it fairly clear and explicit in the novel (as in the 1931 film) or is there the ambiguity which Fassbinder runs with?
Last edited by Lemmy Caution on Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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markhax
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#303 Post by markhax » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:35 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:In the novel, what is the motivation for Reinhold pushing Franz out of the car?

Fassbinder weaves a complicated web of ambiguity. Possibilities include:

* Reinhold is angry that Franz is no longer obeying him, refusing to continue to do Reinhold's bidding with the unwanted ladies.
* There is a psycho-sexual drama going on, with Reinhold in some way jealous of Franz's potency/success with Reinhold's cast-off women.
* Reinhold is upset with Franz's incompetence and stupidity as the lookout, which might have endangered the burglary.
* Reinhold's MO is to use and then discard people, and he does this with Franz in a particularly brutal fashion because of anyone of the above reasons.

At the end, Fassbinder unconvincingly throws out the extra (Jutzi) possibility that Franz informed on the gang. This seems slipshod and doesn't add up since Franz was recruited into the heist at the last minute and was unaware of what was going to go down, or where.

Is it fairly clear and explicit in the novel (as in the 1931 film) or is there the ambiguity which Fassbinder runs with?
In the novel there are two things going on. Initially Reinhold is anxious because a car is following them as they leave the site of the robbery. He then looks at Franz who looks happily content. "What are you laughing for, you monkey, you must be completely nuts." Franz: "I can laugh if I want, it's none of your business." It is this moment that Reinhold's resentments about Franz surface, not only that he had left him in the lurch with Trude, but worse, that Franz went to the next woman Reinhold had lined up, a certain Nelly, and warned her about getting involved with him. In the car Reinhold glares at Franz, "this impudent, fat pig, and to think I confided in him."

In the novel, then, it seems clear there is a double motive: first, the pursuing car is about to catch them, and he is sitting there with the stupidly cheerful Franz, who "lectured me about broads, the idiot, and that I should learn to control my feelings." By pushing Franz out of the car in front of the vehicle that is pursuing them, he gets rid of both.

You are also right about the 'psycho-sexual drama', which is hinted at. Cilly says to Franz that Reinhold is "no lover, he's not a man." His disgust for his women after a short time with them suggests that he may be in denial about his sexual orientation.

In the novel one has a clear sense that Franz is patronizing Reinhold, lecturing him about life and women, and he needles him about not drinking. And Döblin shows Reinhold's hatred building. Shortly before the robbery, and after Franz has refused to take Trude off of Reinhold's hands, there is a scene in which Reinhold lies at night besides Trude in bed, lying under the weight of his 'hatred'. "He lies beside Trude. He sleeps soundly, he commits murder in his dream, in his dream he lets off steam."

In the novel, and in the film, too, it's clear that Franz has no idea what he is getting into when he is asked to stand lookout, so there is no question that he has informed anyone, although Pums and Co. worry about that afterward, when they learn that he is alive--which is how episode 7 begins, with a discussion that is significantly expanded beyond that in the novel.

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#304 Post by Lemmy Caution » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:30 pm

Interesting. So it's largely Fassbinder's explication of the novel, and not just creative license. Maybe this is why RWF says that the Jutzi film is not faithful to the book.

As for Reinhold's success at getting and keeping girls, Reinhold himself says that he spends a lot of money on the girls. In the film, Cilly makes a half-comment about Reinhold not being a real man. So it seems that Reinhold is either impotent or trying too hard to proclaim his hetero status. Reinhold stammers, rushes off to the Salvation Army, and confides in Franz, yet at other times acts supremely confident and cocky.

Maybe add to my list that Reinhold is angry at Franz (and himself) for showing weakness in front of Franz. And you're right, I left off a more practical explanation -- jettisoning Franz provides a distraction which assists the getaway.

How is the Mieze character portrayed in the book? I had a hard time watching and absorbing her character.

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Der Müde Tod
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#305 Post by Der Müde Tod » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:38 am

The question is what we mean by faithful. Döblin's Alexanderplatz can be read as a coming out story where the development of Franz is catalyzed by Mieze (who's 'real' name Sonja is one of the many important references to Dostojevski). I believe that's what got Fassbinder hooked, and he is pretty much faithful to this aspect of the story.

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#306 Post by arsonfilms » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:49 pm

I've just now finally finished watching the 13 episodes, and I'm a little nervous about what still lies in store for me. I understand that the epilogue is substantially different in style, tone and content, and pairing that with the fact the last few episodes were rather emotionally draining, I'm going to need to take some time to digest it all before moving on to finish up.

The trouble is though, what I've heard about the epilogue ranges from a two hour fever dream akin to an entire film comprised of the ending of 2001, to an epic making-of feature that looks back over the film rather than completing it. I'm a little worried about what would happen to my experience if I go into this final piece without the right frame of mind, and could use a bit of guidance from those who are more familiar. Does Doblin's material end with Episode 13, or within the epilogue? Is there anything I should expect, or anything in particular I should not be expecting? I don't want to have anything spoiled for me, but I feel like I've heard too much to go into it without any expectations, and not enough to know what those expectations should be.

Any thoughts? Or am I totally overthinking this whole thing?

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#307 Post by jorencain » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:01 pm

I'm no expert, but I also just finished watching the entire thing a few days ago. You need to watch the Epilogue. Yes, it's 2 hours long and much of it is pretty hallucinatory, but it DOES contain additional plot as well plot (probably about 20 minutes worth). Most of it is Franz's dream/nightmare/memories, which ultimately leads to the conclusion of the story. I would say: don't put it off, and don't overthink it. Don't worry about expectations; Fassbinder doesn't completely pull the rug out from under you or anything.

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#308 Post by arsonfilms » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:56 pm

jorencain wrote:I'm no expert, but I also just finished watching the entire thing a few days ago. You need to watch the Epilogue. Yes, it's 2 hours long and much of it is pretty hallucinatory, but it DOES contain additional plot as well plot (probably about 20 minutes worth). Most of it is Franz's dream/nightmare/memories, which ultimately leads to the conclusion of the story. I would say: don't put it off, and don't overthink it. Don't worry about expectations; Fassbinder doesn't completely pull the rug out from under you or anything.
Good. NOT watching it was never an option, but it was that rug-pulling that I was nervous about, and if it WAS going to happen, I just wanted to know to expect and allow for it. Thanks so much for the help!

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#309 Post by Lemmy Caution » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:57 pm

I would second jorencain.
I've been meaning to go back and read what others wrote about it, but think that I got a rather wrong impression from what I read here.

It is an Epilogue, in which we learn more about the characters and what happened to them. It also serves as a summation, recapitulating and re-inventing the storyline.

I quite liked the Epilogue, probably my favorite episode. The hallucinatory character of it can be attributed easily to Franz's mental state, if one wants to justify the departure in style.

There were a few hints of the epilogue in the main film, especially the naked/hairy old man slaughtering the sheep, but also the whore's alley. This made me wonder if Fassbinder always intended to add a surreal Epilogue as he did, or perhaps planned to sprinkle hallucinatory fragments throughout the film.

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#310 Post by markhax » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:50 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:It is an Epilogue, in which we learn more about the characters and what happened to them. It also serves as a summation, recapitulating and re-inventing the storyline.

I quite liked the Epilogue, probably my favorite episode. The hallucinatory character of it can be attributed easily to Franz's mental state, if one wants to justify the departure in style.
I still haven't got through the episodes--have done 9 now and am taking it slowly. But having read the book I can say this much. Franz, when he is arrested for shooting at a policeman is placed in a mental institution. His hallucinations there, including his encounter with Death, are quite expressionistic. And it is there that the old Franz dies and a new Franz is born (this is how Döblin portrays it) and starts life anew with an honest job.

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#311 Post by BrianInAtlanta » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:01 pm

I've been looking forward to this since I saw it back in the early 1980's. I'm now about halfway through the epilogue.

Afraid my comments might seem a bit shallow with the above, but I found that watching BA now as opposed to the early 1980's very different because of HBO.

Back then the form of the "mini-series" was just beginning (had Holocaust been shown in Germany when BA was made?) and the idea of following a main character through a long serial drama with continuing action from episode to episode was rare. Now it's HBO's home style and some of BA's then weirdness if far more normal now. Oh, this is a Sopranos dream sequence! Oh, now it's all gone Carnivale!

My other reaction now is that it's the performances that drive the work and not Günter Lamprecht and Gottfried John as Franz and Reinhold but rather Günter Lamprecht and Barbara Sukowa as Franz and Mieze. The abandon with which the two dive into their scenes together are incredible. The highpoint for me was Episode 11 when Franz and Mieze have their big fight. That scream Sukowa lets forth, mien Gott!

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#312 Post by Satanas » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:17 pm

I just finished B.A. last night. It's an amazing, dense, frustrating, sublime, and exhausting work. It certainly leaves quite a few questions in the viewer's head to chew on. I particularly liked the epilogue, but there's one thing about it that struck me as strange, and I wanted to see if anybody else noticed it: where the hell is Lina?

In the epilogue, virtually every character that Franz has had any kind of casual conversation with ends up making an appearance. Key characters like Reinhold, Meck, and Mieze appear, as well as a bevy of characters who briefly pop in and out of Franz's life (Cilly, Franze, Ludens, Baumann, etc). Even nameless characters who appear for one episode and vanish for the rest of the series turn up (the Jewish hot dog vendor, the rabbis from episode one, the widow Ludens terrorized). The only major character who doesn't seem to appear at all, not even in crowd scenes, is Lina.

It strikes me as an odd omission. In spite of disappearing after a handful of episodes, she is an important part of Franz's life. She's his first serious relationship after leaving Tegel, the woman in whose bed Franz swore his "I'm-going-straight" oath, the first woman to live with him in the apartment Mrs. Bast owns that Ida died in, the woman whose uncle Ludens' treachery caused Franz's first post-prison spiral into madness and depression. You would think she would have left a deeper impression on Franz's psyche than Cilly or Franze, but these two appear in the epilogue in Franz's hallucinations and fever dreams; Lina doesn't.

I was wondering if perhaps I'm mistaken and maybe she did appear briefly in the epilogue and I didn't notice, or if it talks about her absence in the supplements (maybe the actress simply couldn't show up at the time?). Aside from that one nagging question, I really enjoyed B.A. The only other films of Fassbinder I've seen are Veronika Voss and The Marriage Of Maria Braun, and after viewing this film, I definitely want to dig a little deeper into his work.

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#313 Post by domino harvey » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:34 am

BrianInAtlanta wrote:The highpoint for me was Episode 11 when Franz and Mieze have their big fight. That scream Sukowa lets forth, mien Gott!
Parts 10-12 are really the highpoint of the film for me, with the epicenter being this sequence. Almost physically painful just to experience, the fight and Mieze's ability to immediately return to Franz-- heartbreaking and disturbing and worth the whole 16 hour experience. Mieze in the country cafe, with her still bruised and cut face, is the most unshakable image from the film.

I felt so much of the momentum ruined by the Epilogue. There's some interesting moments to be sure, but someone in this thread likened watching the film to watching a season of a modern, character-based TV show-- I think this is totally dead-on, and the epilogue to me felt like a failed series finale, where everything has to be different and strange because it's the finale. It nearly soured the whole experience for me, but what came before it is so strong that it merely serves as an unsatisfying, failed experiment in how to end the film.

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#314 Post by BrianInAtlanta » Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:12 pm

I have a copy of the novel, but I haven't read it and packed it (I'm moving) right before I got the boxset #-o so a question: Does the book end at the conclusion of Fassbinder's Episode 13 or does it tell what happened to Franz and Reinhold afterwards like Jutzi's film and the end of Fassbinder's Epilogue?

Watching the epilogue, I couldn't help thinking of Monty Python's bit, "and now Ken Russell's Gardening Club." With the naked bodies in a pile and the cross imagery juxtaposed with hallucinogenic visions, it was pure Russell.

Funniest scene in the whole work: Chapter Three where Franz goes into the flower shop and rattles off some half-formed emotional feelings and the lady behind the counter, more deadpan than any shopkeeper in a Coen Brothers' movie, instantly interprets it. "What you need are white carnations." I almost expected Lou Jacobi to pop up, "and ferns, you need five!"

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#315 Post by jorencain » Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:14 pm

BrianInAtlanta wrote:Funniest scene in the whole work: Chapter Three where Franz goes into the flower shop and rattles off some half-formed emotional feelings and the lady behind the counter, more deadpan than any shopkeeper in a Coen Brothers' movie, instantly interprets it. "What you need are white carnations." I almost expected Lou Jacobi to pop up, "and ferns, you need five!"
I was anxiously awaiting that scene since the first time I ever even heard of the film....I had heard the reference in Laurie Anderson's "White Lily" and wondered what the hell the movie could be like. I guess she got the translation wrong, though:

"What Fassbinder film is it?
The one-armed man walks into a flower shop
And says: What flower expresses
Days go by
And they just keep going by endlessly
Pulling you Into the future
Days go by
Endlessly
Endlessly pulling you
Into the future?
And the florist says: White Lily."

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#316 Post by BrianInAtlanta » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:12 pm

Great new essay on the book and the film (and Criterion's DVD) by Ian Buruma in the Jan. 17 issue of The New York Review of Books already online here:

The Genius of Berlin

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#317 Post by sevenarts » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:46 am

I've started watching this, and it's pretty great so far. I've posted a review of the first two episodes, and will continue to write in-depth discussions of the individual parts as I watch more over the next week or two. The film is obviously very carefully paced, with the great length allowing Fassbinder to spend a lot of time simply developing the characters. I also thought it was interesting the way he periodically delves into third-person voiceover narration directly from the novel, even speaking aloud the "open parenthesis" and "close parenthesis" to self-consciously acknowledge the literary nature of the material. I'm looking forward to watching more.

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#318 Post by In Heaven » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:46 pm

Does anyone know how long each individual episode is?

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#319 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:00 pm

In Heaven wrote:Does anyone know how long each individual episode is?
the first is just under an hour and a half, parts 2-13 are just over an hour, and the epilogue is just under two hours.

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#320 Post by kinjitsu » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:47 pm

domino harvey wrote:
In Heaven wrote:Does anyone know how long each individual episode is?
the first is just under an hour and a half, parts 2-13 are just over an hour, and the epilogue is just under two hours.
Detailed episode breakdown on page 4.

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#321 Post by domino harvey » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:32 am

kinjitsu wrote:
domino harvey wrote:
In Heaven wrote:Does anyone know how long each individual episode is?
the first is just under an hour and a half, parts 2-13 are just over an hour, and the epilogue is just under two hours.
Detailed episode breakdown on page 4.
Which is inaccurate due to the new PAL conversion, my times are for the Criterion release. I know it's not a huge difference but still.

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Banana #3
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#322 Post by Banana #3 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:17 pm

I'm a person who's interested in just about any film ever made but I'm tight on money. I doubt I'm alone on this.

Anyhow, my point is, I'm not sure if I should dive into BA. I watched Fear Eats the Soul and frankly I was a bit bored. Now I'm not one to go around bashing directors, and Fassbinder fascinates me and I sure as hell wanted to enjoy Soul, but I more or less didn't.

BA seems like an amazing and fascinating story. I read about a part where Franz returns to the prison one night and sleeps on a bench outside it's gates. The emotional poignancy and profundity of that just completely amazes me.

But for a person who was not blown away by Fear, do I still have a fighting chance with BA? Does anyone recommend I put down the money?

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#323 Post by zedz » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:26 pm

Banana #3 wrote:But for a person who was not blown away by Fear, do I still have a fighting chance with BA? Does anyone recommend I put down the money?
There are plenty of other Fassbinders you can try out first at less risk. I think the RWF thread in 'Old Films' has gone into 'Starter Kit' territory in the past. Nothing particularly like Berllin Alexanderplatz, though. Marriage of Maria Braun, Effi Briest and Veronika Voss will at least give you an idea of Fassbinder in period / adaptation mode. In a Year of 13 Moons will give you some of the intensity and pathos.

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#324 Post by MichaelB » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:27 pm

Banana #3 wrote:I'm a person who's interested in just about any film ever made.
Even this one?

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HerrSchreck
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#325 Post by HerrSchreck » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:34 pm

Maybe that's where Harlan Ellison got his habit of The Long Title from... (i e The Beast That Shouted Love At The Heart of The World, or The Prowler In The City At The Edge of the World, or Love Aint Nothing But Sex Misspelled).

Waitaminnit-- I get it! Harlan Ellison's really a chinese communist! No WONDER he's so damned short!

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