1038 Marriage Story

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aox
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#101 Post by aox » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:48 am

The only thing that didn't work for me was
SpoilerShow
the Driver musical number in the third act
. It wasn't ever particularly necessary. I found it very jarring and it brought the film to halt for me. Otherwise, I was completely mesmerized by this "Kramer vs. Kramer"-esque update.

Is there any female in this movie that's like-able? The movie wasn't as balanced as I expected it to be and even with the noted objections in this thread to Driver's character, it felt like both his movie and a "man's movie".

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Brian C
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#102 Post by Brian C » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:31 am

Is there any female that’s particularly unlikeable? I suppose I agree with the general point that the film has a male perspective overall, but I respected how the movie didn’t stack the deck against the women. Even Dern’s high-powered divorce attorney - which initially seems set up as a rich target for misogynistic anxiety - comes across reasonably favorably. More so than Liotta’s male counterpart, at least to me.

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Persona
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#103 Post by Persona » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:01 pm

Yeah, while the movie doesn't seem very pro-lawyer (which kind of fits with its view of our codified, transactional system of divorce as something that is too easily decency-stripping), I'd say Dern comes off a lot better than Liotta.

I do feel like the film skews pretty sympathetic towards Driver's character for about the first hour, but as it goes on it really evens out and you come to a much better understanding of why ScarJo took the actions she took, and then it even gets to a point where Driver's painted as pretty selfish and pathetic.

I think this is probably the right arc for it to take. When he was going through his divorce, Baumbach probably felt like a victim. But in retrospect, he realizes that he wasn't at all, and the film mirrors his path to that ownership.

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Persona
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#104 Post by Persona » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:04 pm

aox wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:48 am
The only thing that didn't work for me was
SpoilerShow
the Driver musical number in the third act
.
I hear you but, man, that brief look on his face after. Worth it to me.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#105 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:19 pm

aox wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:48 am
The only thing that didn't work for me was
SpoilerShow
the Driver musical number in the third act
. It wasn't ever particularly necessary. I found it very jarring and it brought the film to halt for me.
It felt like a cynical attempt to create an "iconic" moment from the film, or for Driver, or both, sort of like the dance in Frances Ha that was lifted from Carax

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#106 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:27 pm

Brian C wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:31 am
I suppose I agree with the general point that the film has a male perspective overall, but I respected how the movie didn’t stack the deck against the women. Even Dern’s high-powered divorce attorney - which initially seems set up as a rich target for misogynistic anxiety - comes across reasonably favorably.
Persona wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:01 pm
I do feel like the film skews pretty sympathetic towards Driver's character for about the first hour, but as it goes on it really evens out and you come to a much better understanding of why ScarJo took the actions she took, and then it even gets to a point where Driver's painted as pretty selfish and pathetic.

I think this is probably the right arc for it to take. When he was going through his divorce, Baumbach probably felt like a victim. But in retrospect, he realizes that he wasn't at all, and the film mirrors his path to that ownership.
These points sum up the film's best strengths from a narrative perspective. Brian, I'll admit I was squirming from Dern's character until close to the end when we get a few scenes that bring the focus out of the muck to acknowledge that beneath the lawyer manipulations she has an authenticity of moral drive behind why she does this work, and her final speech about a woman's place in a man's world isn't didactic so much as challenging that perspective shaped by the conscious and unconscious elements of patriarchal society. Persona, I love that idea that the script mirrored Baumbach's own process in shifting perspective, and these sobering changes that emerged from subjective investment towards objective relativism was the most mature part of the film for me.

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aox
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#107 Post by aox » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:06 pm

Brian C wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:31 am
Is there any female that’s particularly unlikeable? I suppose I agree with the general point that the film has a male perspective overall, but I respected how the movie didn’t stack the deck against the women. Even Dern’s high-powered divorce attorney - which initially seems set up as a rich target for misogynistic anxiety - comes across reasonably favorably. More so than Liotta’s male counterpart, at least to me.
That's fair (especially your latter comment on an aspect of the film that I felt was more of a commentary on how "divorce industry" is a capitalist nightmare).

I can see the film's attitude's with women as either being cavalier, callous, or diminutive. I had a problem with the fact that we never really see any intimate scenes of SJ talking with her lawyer after the initial two scenes with their meeting (I expected Dern to suggest Essential Oils®). There's an omission that doesn't counteract Driver's screentime showing his evolution (we see him talk a few times how "she would never do/demand that"). They both agreed in the beginning to no lawyers with an "easy" divorce, and then we focus on his growth to the process he is going to face. As a result, SJ becomes a periphery character during this ordeal.

I fully understand that my criticisms are dangerously close to "this wasn't the film I would have made". The first hour at least is a masterpiece, and I loved the film and performances.
mfunk9786 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:19 pm

It felt like a cynical attempt to create an "iconic" moment from the film, or for Driver, or both, sort of like the dance in Frances Ha that was lifted from Carax
I'm glad I am not the most cynical person on the board. But, fully agreed. :cheers

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Brian C
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#108 Post by Brian C » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:16 pm

aox wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:06 pm
I can see the film's attitude's with women as either being cavalier, callous, or diminutive. I had a problem with the fact that we never really see any intimate scenes of SJ talking with her lawyer after the initial two scenes with their meeting (I expected Dern to suggest Essential Oils®). There's an omission that doesn't counteract Driver's screentime showing his evolution (we see him talk a few times how "she would never do/demand that"). They both agreed in the beginning to no lawyers with an "easy" divorce, and then we focus on his growth to the process he is going to face. As a result, SJ becomes a periphery character during this ordeal.
I get where you're coming from, but I think mostly this is just a result of the film giving Nicole credit on a fundamental level - she's not the one that has to evolve. She's unhappy, she wants a divorce, and she has the right to do it on her terms as much as he does on his. It's Charlie that has to come to terms with that.

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furbicide
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#109 Post by furbicide » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:50 pm

It's interesting to read a lot of the takes about Dern and Liotta being sympathetic; to me, they were cardboard comic-relief villains, nothing more. They're pretty good at what they do here, sure, but Baumbach's habit of putting caricatures in support roles does grate on me a little (particularly here, when Driver and Johansson are playing such complex and believable characters).

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#110 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:22 pm

Furbicide, ever met a divorce lawyer? Seen one who's got a certain degree of branding for their practice? They're all too believable in their one-dimensional aspects, it's really the mark of a good divorce lawyer when they've got a direct and simplified POV to provide to a client to put them at ease.

Say what you will about how charmingly modest Alda's character is in this film - he's not a particularly good lawyer because of how much grey area he leaves hanging around for his client to mull over and develop uncertainty about the direction the proceedings are headed in. Liotta, on the other hand, would've told Driver that they're settling, why they're settling, and given him very little room to second guess the idea.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#111 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:43 pm

furbicide wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:50 pm
Baumbach's habit of putting caricatures in support roles does grate on me a little
I’m curious as to what you’re referring to by this? I’ve always felt that Baumbach makes all his characters, including supporting roles, complex and interesting. He doesn’t settle for handing the audience the keys to understanding them so this impenetrability in the act of observing any human being can come off as aloof and simple I suppose. Still, I can’t think of any character, main or side, that isn’t treated in a way that hints Baumbach is subtly curious about them and refuses to reduce them completely to caricature, even if he plays with those characteristics to highlight the humanity (like Ciarán Hinds in Margot, for example).

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Oedipax
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#112 Post by Oedipax » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:42 pm

As far as side characters that are caricatures, I'd say Stepehn Baldwin as Ivan gets pretty close in The Squid and the Whale (where every other line is him saying "my brotha!") It's a funny character though, and he does ultimately show a little more humanity.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#113 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:20 pm

Yeah I guess I can think of many who embody such caricatures (Hinds is another) but my point is that even within these seemingly surface-level characters Baumbach allows for brief space to hint that they’re more than the sum of what we glimpse judgmentally. Perhaps it’s just the way he draws characters with this empathetic eye but his approach appears to be that all people are only readable from a distance and yet there’s a complexity underneath that we’ll never be able to flesh out to its essence with any expressive art, so he presents us with a behavioral collage that forces ambiguity and a sense that there’s much more left to understand, opting for a different intervention to achieve authenticity. I think this extends to his side characters just as much as the main, except it’s more challenging to do so he wisely goes for caricatures to present us with the experience of meeting unimportant people in our lives and passing judgment, while quietly letting us know that these are just as real human beings as the main characters and there’s a story with them as the center too that we’re not exploring.

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Brian C
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#114 Post by Brian C » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:22 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:Say what you will about how charmingly modest Alda's character is in this film - he's not a particularly good lawyer because of how much grey area he leaves hanging around for his client to mull over and develop uncertainty about the direction the proceedings are headed in. Liotta, on the other hand, would've told Driver that they're settling, why they're settling, and given him very little room to second guess the idea.
I’m not so sure I agree with this take. You’re right that Alda’s character probably leaves too much grey area, but nevertheless he gets settlement talks pretty much worked out as far as we can tell, and without the acrimony and expense that Liotta’s character brings to little apparent effect.

I actually thought Liotta seemed like a terrible lawyer, because his goal seemed to be to amp up the hostility between the parties, thus drawing out the proceedings and therefore generating income for himself. He’s a professional wheel-spinner.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#115 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:25 pm

Perhaps this is a derailment but beyond the realism and effectiveness of the system and roles of lawyers, I took both of Driver’s diverse lawyers as a contrast that pitted against him revealed a weird prism in a sacrifice of control and humility in this process. Liotta goes against his gut and moral compass as ill-fitting for what Driver wants (he doesn’t want this to be complicated at all) but Alda’s fumblings and light humanity also don’t work once his back is against the wall. That crying scene with Alda, just as much as Driver facing his empathy for his son and the reality that he is and will experience loss, also contains him facing that he must compromise himself and release more control than he expected in this process. I think he’s crying from empathy but also from being existentially trapped, and he feels he must act with cognitive dissonance to get some of that control back and to have a role in his son’s life, and so he opts for Liotta to fight fire with fire not out of resentment or barebones logic but because the ends justify the means in the emotional stakes producing an uncomfortable fight/flight internal logic Driver is compelled to follow when he feels this drainage of control. I agree that one can look at each lawyer and pry the good and bad of each, but they seemed to me to serve a more structural function as extremes neither of which fit Driver’s needs, and they become stakeposts for Driver’s own internal struggle rather than as objective presentations of good/bad or effective/ineffective lawyers.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#116 Post by nitin » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:14 am

aox wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:06 pm
Brian C wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:31 am
Is there any female that’s particularly unlikeable? I suppose I agree with the general point that the film has a male perspective overall, but I respected how the movie didn’t stack the deck against the women. Even Dern’s high-powered divorce attorney - which initially seems set up as a rich target for misogynistic anxiety - comes across reasonably favorably. More so than Liotta’s male counterpart, at least to me.
That's fair (especially your latter comment on an aspect of the film that I felt was more of a commentary on how "divorce industry" is a capitalist nightmare).

I can see the film's attitude's with women as either being cavalier, callous, or diminutive. I had a problem with the fact that we never really see any intimate scenes of SJ talking with her lawyer after the initial two scenes with their meeting (I expected Dern to suggest Essential Oils®). There's an omission that doesn't counteract Driver's screentime showing his evolution (we see him talk a few times how "she would never do/demand that"). They both agreed in the beginning to no lawyers with an "easy" divorce, and then we focus on his growth to the process he is going to face. As a result, SJ becomes a periphery character during this ordeal.

I fully understand that my criticisms are dangerously close to "this wasn't the film I would have made". The first hour at least is a masterpiece, and I loved the film and performances.
mfunk9786 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:19 pm

It felt like a cynical attempt to create an "iconic" moment from the film, or for Driver, or both, sort of like the dance in Frances Ha that was lifted from Carax
I'm glad I am not the most cynical person on the board. But, fully agreed. :cheers
I thought Nicole’s monologue to Dern’s character was so good that more explanation/POV was probably not necessary? The film though is definitely structured from the point of view of Driver’s character realising and coming to terms with his selfishness.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#117 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:12 pm

Brian C wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:22 pm
mfunk9786 wrote:Say what you will about how charmingly modest Alda's character is in this film - he's not a particularly good lawyer because of how much grey area he leaves hanging around for his client to mull over and develop uncertainty about the direction the proceedings are headed in. Liotta, on the other hand, would've told Driver that they're settling, why they're settling, and given him very little room to second guess the idea.
I’m not so sure I agree with this take. You’re right that Alda’s character probably leaves too much grey area, but nevertheless he gets settlement talks pretty much worked out as far as we can tell, and without the acrimony and expense that Liotta’s character brings to little apparent effect.

I actually thought Liotta seemed like a terrible lawyer, because his goal seemed to be to amp up the hostility between the parties, thus drawing out the proceedings and therefore generating income for himself. He’s a professional wheel-spinner.
He was prepared to go to bat for Driver's character, though, in a way that Alda was not. Recall Dern's reaction to seeing him, when she realized that everything was back on the table, because like her, Liotta was prepared to explore every avenue of getting it done. Driver would not have sought out Liotta unless there were things that he wanted that he wasn't getting, so he can say he doesn't want things to be complicated all he wants, but it's clear that for him, "not complicated" just means "I get my way and it all happens smoothly."

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#118 Post by John Shade » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:26 pm

I thought Dern's first interaction with Liotta was kind of interesting; the chumminess they can have before going after each other. Watching them made me simply grateful that I don't have to deal with people like that more than anything else.

I didn't think this was that bad, and I say that as someone who is not divorced, nor has much money, nor lives in or near LA or NYC. Typically I'm not even usually one who likes Baumbach's work (I love Mistress America but few of his others). That being said: does the movie imply that Driver's character is very wealthy? Is simply jumping across the country and getting an extra place enough to say that? Even though he has the grant, the movie did seem to suggest that the divorce proceedings are a financial drain. It also makes it clear that the financial drain is yet another negative impact on the life of their son, indirectly the most sympathetic person in this whole thing.

A few other things that I liked about this...The inept producers of the tv show; the "getting served" scene; Driver walking around as the Invisible Man; Driver reading Stuart Little; most scenes with Julie Hagerty, and I also liked the "faux iconic" scene mentioned above; I concede some of what you all say about it, but it was still my favorite scene in the movie. I think it provided a relief to what was, for a more spoiled person like me, a very tense movie. That being said I also laughed in many places where I'm not sure I was supposed to, so I'm glad I watched this on Netflix and not in a theater.

Sorry if these thoughts are scattered or incoherent. I also take this time to recommend another LA divorce movie, "Celeste and Jesse Forever"

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Persona
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#119 Post by Persona » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:29 pm

At the end I found ScarJo's reaction to
SpoilerShow
Driver saying he was taking a job in LA
incredibly interesting. It could be read so many different ways. Beautifully performed by her and beautifully left alone or not overly spelled out by Baumbach.

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Black Hat
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#120 Post by Black Hat » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:03 am

I'm surprised by how many of you have seemingly lost the plot with this film. For one the lawyers function in the picture is to cut the tension to ascribe anything more is missing the point.

Something thing that surprised me is while we're all inclined to immediately make the connection to Jennifer Jason Leigh, Scarjo appeared to be far more akin to his Greta Gerwig.

I'm also pretty much the target audience for this movie right down to the pretentiousness so perhaps the lukewarm reception here is the more proper response.

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furbicide
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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#121 Post by furbicide » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:09 am

mfunk9786 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:22 pm
Furbicide, ever met a divorce lawyer? Seen one who's got a certain degree of branding for their practice? They're all too believable in their one-dimensional aspects, it's really the mark of a good divorce lawyer when they've got a direct and simplified POV to provide to a client to put them at ease.
Admittedly ... probably not. Though if they're anything like these smooth-talking cartoon villains, I'm not sure I'd want to (particularly not if I'm paying for the privilege)!

therewillbeblus, I think I'm inclined towards your view that they functionally serve the main characters' narratives (and this also goes for perhaps my least favourite scene, the social worker's visit in which Driver accidentally cuts himself). Maybe that's fine and a film like this full of sympathetic and well-rounded supporting characters would have been weaker and duller; I guess it just took me out of the film a bit and at times detracted from what to me otherwise felt like a very authentic portrayal of two people going through something awful.

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Re: Marriage Story (Noah Baumbach, 2019)

#122 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:05 pm

To be fair, despite my reading I still left the theatre more afraid of the divorce process than sympathetic to the characters so even if I can admire their function it didn’t totally work for me either

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Re: Forthcoming: Marriage Story

#123 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:16 pm

Confirmed by Netflix as forthcoming from Criterion this year

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furbicide
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Re: Forthcoming: Marriage Story

#124 Post by furbicide » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:04 am

Really great to hear – even if you're not a fan of the film, it is encouraging to see these important Netflix titles getting good DVD releases. I kind of feel like we'd be starting to see the beginning of the end for physical media if that wasn't the case.

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Re: Forthcoming: Marriage Story

#125 Post by britcom68 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:23 am

Excited as everyone for the forthcoming release! I just hope that the 2019 rumors that Pennebaker's Company: original cast album are not tied to Marriage Story as a supplement only. Although I can understand Criterion wanting to use that as a supplement with Marriage Story, the documentary is strong enough for its own spine with a plethora of its own supplements.

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