Criterion and UHD

[dwk]

Devil in a Blue Dress mentions Dolby Vision

In the 4K UHD edition: One 4K UHD disc of the film presented in Dolby Vision HDR and one Blu-ray with the film and special features

While Raging Bull mentions HDR but not DV

In the 4K UHD edition: One 4K UHD disc of the film presented in HDR and one Blu-ray with the film and special features

[Finch]

Clearly, I need new glasses!

[EddieLarkin]

Thanks for sharing! So, technically, this is not a full HDR grade as the highlights aren't being touched by design?

It just means it's a restrained HDR grading, much like Citizen Kane and The Red Shoes were. Perhaps Criterion really have realised that Dolby Vision is pointless on such titles, so they've decided to stop paying for its inclusion when its not needed, hence why two titles this month will be HDR10 only.

[yoloswegmaster]

'The Rules of the Game' will be getting a 4K UHD in France. Since it's likely that they will be using the new 4K restoration that Criterion had been involved in, I wouldn't be surprised if Criterion were going to release a 4K version themselves.

[ryannichols7]

just for kicks, I was bored tonight and was looking at what we have so far from Criterion on UHD, license wise and so forth..

Citizen Kane (WB)
Mulholland Drive (Studiocanal)
Uncut Gems (Lionsgate/A24)
Menace II Society (WB)
The Red Shoes (ITV/Janus)
The Piano (TFI)
A Hard Day's Night (Janus)
Le Cercle Rouge (Studiocanal)
The Last Waltz (MGM)
For All Mankind (Janus)
Double Indemnity (Universal)
Shaft (WB)
Raging Bull (MGM)
Devil in a Blue Dress (Sony)
Okja (Netflix)
The Virgin Suicides (Paramount)
Blow Out (MGM)
Sound of Metal (Amazon)

observations:
-18 releases, 7/18 of which are upgrades. personally find this is a healthy ratio.
-all major US studios minus Fox/Disney (to no one's surprise) represented on 4K, so new deals must be in place. I do still see Fox happening thanks to Wes Anderson if nothing else, but do think we may see some Fox titles upgraded anyway, as well as some possible new spines (Sunrise in 4K, anyone?)
-who would've thought Le Cercle Rouge and Okja would be the only two non-English language UHDs so far, almost a year in?
-lack of big ticket Janus titles. The Seventh Seal is the one I remain most surprised by, even with the BFI's disc I'm sure Criterion could sell enough copies in the states. even then, 8 1/2 and Juliet of the Spirits would be extremely stunning picks for Fellini, and are the two titles most likely of his to see the bump from Criterion (I'd say La Dolce Vita too obviously, but that's in Paramount's court)
-I have to assume The Graduate, The Princess Bride, and Midnight Cowboy will come sometime soon, I don't see MGM doing these themselves and Kino did not get them. Sweet Smell of Success would rule too but I admit the other three are all bigger titles, and MGM is the US studio with the most titles on schedule so far (also not a surprise)
-hopefully Barry Lyndon happens alongside either Lolita or Eyes Wide Shut this Holiday. all WB titles so far are new spines
-Universal is a peculiar case as Criterion has a strong relationship with them. so far, no upgrades of old Universal spines - during the initial Bluray era, Universal put out several titles (Fear and Loathing, Dazed and Confused, etc) that Criterion did DVDs for, but then Criterion upgraded all to BD anyway. to be determined on whether that'll be the case for UHD.
-similar scenario with Sony, who has upgraded Anatomy of a Murder and Dr. Strangelove among others.
-Paramount returns with The Virgin Suicides, but who knows if this was a Sofia Coppola effort or not. I'll be curious if/when the first catalog (not from a living director) comes from Paramount. the 6 titles that went OOP before (Malick is alive, of course) would probably be the 'biggest' to start, and I could see something like Nashville or Days of Heaven returning.
-curiosity remains over how many titles released on BD only with 4K restorations in the UHD era will eventually get the bump up. The Tales of Hoffmann and Mississippi Masala would've been real knockouts with HDR, and I'm honestly really surprised Exotica won't be a UHD - feels like something that Arrow would've done.
-Criterion does seem dedicated to some pretty major upcoming French 4K restorations: Three Colors (which will likely be the first boxset upgrade to 4K, it's a known successful seller), The Rules of the Game, and Le Samourai will probably all see upgrades. Grand Illusion, The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, and The 400 Blows are all readily available too.
-no indications, murmurs, or anything of any title not from US/UK/France as of now

feel free to add any findings!

[FrauBlucher]

ryan, perfect timing. Yesterday on TCM, Suspicion was on and it made me think what Hitchcock would be a UHD candidate for CC. Would it be something they already have or something they would license anew? The Universals are pretty much out of the question.

[DandyDancing]

Sound of Metal (Netflix)

Its Amazon studios.

[rrenault]

I just hope I don't start getting into the habit of picking up the more accessibly priced European UHD releases of films like Rules of the Game and Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, only to get burned by Criterion releasing the same film with a much superior encode. This has already happened to me with Le Cercle Rouge, and I caved and double-dipped. Welp...

The Seventh Seal was at least encoded by David M, so I feel safe there.

10-12 years ago when I got into buying blu-rays I didn't pay much attention to encode quality and the like. I just thought, "A Man Escaped on blu-ray? Ok cool." I've slowly become a terminal case though. :p

P.S. To add to ryannichols' post, it's also interesting to observe all but three of Criterion's 18 UHD release are exclusive to CC...

[Roscoe]

ryan, perfect timing. Yesterday on TCM, Suspicion was on and it made me think what Hitchcock would be a UHD candidate for CC. Would it be something they already have or something they would license anew? The Universals are pretty much out of the question.

That's interesting. I'd upgrade to UHDs of NOTORIOUS and REBECCA and LADY VANISHES, no questions asked, pending reviews and all that. I'd settle for a good solid Blu-Ray of YOUNG AND INNOCENT. Not sure about 39 STEPS, would an upgrade be all that much of an upgrade?

I was wondering about the Netflix/Criterion conduit. Has it dried up? A UHD of THE IRISHMAN and Cuaron's ROMA would be most welcome, and those Welles WIND projects seem stuck on streaming, probably for good at this stage. Am I wrong?

[bottlesofsmoke]

When/if they re-release Spellbound, it seems like UHD would be a no-brainer.

[therewillbeblus]

While Suspicion is miles better than Spellbound, the latter is more visually arresting and Criterion (wisely) seems to be pushing those kinds of films as upgrades, for the most part. I'd rather they release practically any other Hitch though

[tenia]

I just hope I don't start getting into the habit of picking up the more accessibly priced European UHD releases of films like Rules of the Game and Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, only to get burned by Criterion releasing the same film with a much superior encode. This has already happened to me with Le Cercle Rouge, and I caved and double-dipped. Welp...

That's all part of the game in a globalised market. Theoretically, this shouldn't happen to you, were you to simply stick to your geographical area. Not doing so means possibly buying stuff that might be released in better (and/or cheaper) versions elsewhere. It's then up to you to try and guess which is the better choice for you, or if what's available at the moment is good enough and won't lead you to double dip if it's released later in another release.

-lack of big ticket Janus titles. The Seventh Seal is the one I remain most surprised by, even with the BFI's disc I'm sure Criterion could sell enough copies in the states. even then, 8 1/2 and Juliet of the Spirits would be extremely stunning picks for Fellini, and are the two titles most likely of his to see the bump from Criterion (I'd say La Dolce Vita too obviously, but that's in Paramount's court)

I wonder if it's because Criterion might not be too big on splitting sets, and those are both from big sets. I suppose though that exceptions exist : the Bergman set still had subsequent individual releases, and we've seen individual releases from the Olympics and the WCP sets, so who knows.

the 6 titles that went OOP before (Malick is alive, of course) would probably be the 'biggest' to start, and I could see something like Nashville or Days of Heaven returning.

Days of Heaven would need a new restoration, since the old one isn't ageing so well and definitely isn't fit for a UHD release, but Nashville just got released on BD by Paramount themselves, and I think at some point, licences need to be clearer than "the BD is released by X but it doesn't mean there won't be a UHD from Y".

The Tales of Hoffmann and Mississippi Masala would've been real knockouts with HDR, and I'm honestly really surprised Exotica won't be a UHD - feels like something that Arrow would've done.

I wonder how much of this lack of UHD releases stems from Criterion thinking those won't sell enough UHDs to justify investing into a UHD release and how much comes from the restorations possibly just having been done in SDR and Criterion still trying to avoid SDR UHDs .

-Criterion does seem dedicated to some pretty major upcoming French 4K restorations: Three Colors (which will likely be the first boxset upgrade to 4K, it's a known successful seller), The Rules of the Game, and Le Samourai will probably all see upgrades. Grand Illusion, The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, and The 400 Blows are all readily available too.

The Rules of the Game could be upgraded, but the restoration has just been finished, so it might just be a matter to time. La grande illusion and Bourgeoisie would also fit.

Le Samourai would need a new restoration, the current one is awful and a UHD of it would (and should) be very negatively received. I'd argue it also wouldn't particularly be a good thing to upgrade The 400 Blows based on technical merits, since the new restoration is quite problematically filtered and graded too.

[bottlesofsmoke]

I agree on Spellbound, the story behind it’s making is more interesting than the movie. Suspicion would be interesting because WB has already put it out through WAC, while Kane and Shaft were just WB releases. If they’re willing to license out WAC titles for UHD that opens up a huge can of worms, but at least we know they are willing to license certain non-WAC titles for sure.

Strangers in a Train isn’t WAC and would be an awesome choice. I think some people have predicted The Searchers, and that makes a lot of sense too. The dream for me would be a UHD of The Bandwagon because not only do I love the film, it would be a chance to get a Minnelli Criterion, because outside of Tea and Symphony there isn’t anything left not on Blu-Ray already, though I can totally see them putting that one out, I sure hope so.

[yoloswegmaster]

Le Samourai would need a new restoration, the current one is awful and a UHD of it would (and should) be very negatively received. I'd argue it also wouldn't particularly be a good thing to upgrade The 400 Blows based on technical merits, since the new restoration is quite problematically filtered and graded too.

Criterion and Pathe worked on a new 4K restoration at the L’Image Retrouvée lab (is this the French lab under Ritrovato?), and it will be premiering at the Ritrovato festival later this year. Is the Ritrovato festival is the one you go to or was that the Lumiere festival?

[FrauBlucher]

North By Northwest would be an awesome UHD. Not sure WB will put it out. It is a color film which they seem to favor though. It was a CC laserdisc so there’s that.

[dwk]

I wonder how much of this lack of UHD releases stems from Criterion thinking those won't sell enough UHDs to justify investing into a UHD release and how much comes from the restorations possibly just having been done in SDR and Criterion still trying to avoid SDR UHDs .

I can't recall if it was an email response shared on reddit or if Lee Kline said something on his podcast, but I remember getting confirmation that they were working on a SDR UHD.

[rrenault]

North By Northwest would be an awesome UHD. Not sure WB will put it out. It is a color film which they seem to favor though. It was a CC laserdisc so there’s that.

Now that's one title I'm surprised hasn't yet been released on UHD.

[therewillbeblus]

I'm sure it's coming sooner rather than later from somebody. If a boutique label doesn't jump on it fast (if they can even strike a deal), WB will do it, which'll be just fine as their Singin' in the Rain UHD wouldn't gain anything other than a booklet coming from Criterion

[tenia]

Criterion and Pathe worked on a new 4K restoration at the L’Image Retrouvée lab (is this the French lab under Ritrovato?), and it will be premiering at the Ritrovato festival later this year. Is the Ritrovato festival is the one you go to or was that the Lumiere festival?

I go to Lumière at Lyon (though hopefully one day, I'll also do Bologna - the missus often tells me "you could just drop me there, I'll sightsee !). I didn't know about a new restoration, that's extremely good news ! If the new resto has the Ritrovata's color signature, it'll be a laugh since the color grading of the 2011 restoration (while most likely incorrect in many ways) was positively received because it was supposedly supervised by Pierre Lhomme.
L'image retrouvée is indeed the French branch of Ritrovata.

[yoloswegmaster]

I go to Lumière at Lyon (though hopefully one day, I'll also do Bologna - the missus often tells me "you could just drop me there, I'll sightsee !). I didn't know about a new restoration, that's extremely good news ! If the new resto has the Ritrovata's color signature, it'll be a laugh since the color grading of the 2011 restoration (while most likely incorrect in many ways) was positively received because it was supposedly supervised by Pierre Lhomme.
L'image retrouvée is indeed the French branch of Ritrovata.

Have there been any restorations done at the French branch thay contain the Ritrovato look?

[Calvin]

I'll see the new restoration next week so I'll let you know if it looks off. I've only ever seen it projected previously from 35mm; was the previous Pathe restoration any better on DCP than it was on disc?

[tenia]

I go to Lumière at Lyon (though hopefully one day, I'll also do Bologna - the missus often tells me "you could just drop me there, I'll sightsee !). I didn't know about a new restoration, that's extremely good news ! If the new resto has the Ritrovata's color signature, it'll be a laugh since the color grading of the 2011 restoration (while most likely incorrect in many ways) was positively received because it was supposedly supervised by Pierre Lhomme.
L'image retrouvée is indeed the French branch of Ritrovata.

Have there been any restorations done at the French branch thay contain the Ritrovato look?

Yes, I don't even do the distinction between the branches since the HK one yielded the Bruce Lee movies that were color corrected by Shout then Criterion and I also recall text panels on Ritrovata'd restorations that were stating L'image retrouvée specifically (I'd say the concerned Tavernier and probably their Claude Berri too).

[ryannichols7]

glad my late night listmaking got some fruitful discussion going.

ryan, perfect timing. Yesterday on TCM, Suspicion was on and it made me think what Hitchcock would be a UHD candidate for CC. Would it be something they already have or something they would license anew? The Universals are pretty much out of the question.

North By Northwest would be an awesome UHD. Not sure WB will put it out. It is a color film which they seem to favor though. It was a CC laserdisc so there’s that.

I would love Suspicion but I have to imagine, as others have speculated, that North by Northwest is probably what Criterion would go for if they went to WB for a Hitchcock. ex-laserdisc title that amazingly still isn't on the format, even though Universal is quite handily plowing through their Hitchcock holdings. I do think Suspicion isn't out of the question, but even if WB doesn't let go of NXNW, I see Strangers on a Train and Dial M for Murder being bigger candidates there. I do think all the 1940-onward Hitchcock titles will eventually make their way to the format, which I'll cover more below.

Sound of Metal (Netflix)

Its Amazon studios.

that it is! corrected, apologies (I must admit I have little desire to see the film and I made the list off hand)

I just hope I don't start getting into the habit of picking up the more accessibly priced European UHD releases of films like Rules of the Game and Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, only to get burned by Criterion releasing the same film with a much superior encode. This has already happened to me with Le Cercle Rouge, and I caved and double-dipped. Welp...

The Seventh Seal was at least encoded by David M, so I feel safe there.

10-12 years ago when I got into buying blu-rays I didn't pay much attention to encode quality and the like. I just thought, "A Man Escaped on blu-ray? Ok cool." I've slowly become a terminal case though. :p

P.S. To add to ryannichols' post, it's also interesting to observe all but three of Criterion's 18 UHD release are exclusive to CC...

The Seventh Seal is a very safe bet that the Criterion edition couldn't top the BFI one, all it would do is bring over Criterion's existing (and admittedly excellent) extras, and I love having two different commentaries between the two. for your first point, I agree with you. I've noticed this stuff more and more once upgrading setups, and I'm sure once I move into UHD I'll really care about it. that said, stuff with slight differences (Citizen Kane and Mulholland Drive between the US/UK releases I'd probably miss, whereas the Canal ones seem to be a bit more noticable.

very good factoid there at the end, the three 'shared' titles of course being Citizen Kane, Mulholland Drive, and Le Cercle Rouge. I'm curious going forward to see what that ratio will look like, especially as we get more UHDs from Studiocanal in region B and so far, Criterion is the only US label doing UHDs from them (Kino and eventually Indicator seem like the only possibilities). The Trial is another forthcoming one I didn't mention that Criterion will almost certainly release on UHD in region A, with Canal handling B themselves.

ryan, perfect timing. Yesterday on TCM, Suspicion was on and it made me think what Hitchcock would be a UHD candidate for CC. Would it be something they already have or something they would license anew? The Universals are pretty much out of the question.

That's interesting. I'd upgrade to UHDs of NOTORIOUS and REBECCA and LADY VANISHES, no questions asked, pending reviews and all that. I'd settle for a good solid Blu-Ray of YOUNG AND INNOCENT. Not sure about 39 STEPS, would an upgrade be all that much of an upgrade?

I was wondering about the Netflix/Criterion conduit. Has it dried up? A UHD of THE IRISHMAN and Cuaron's ROMA would be most welcome, and those Welles WIND projects seem stuck on streaming, probably for good at this stage. Am I wrong?

When/if they re-release Spellbound, it seems like UHD would be a no-brainer.

While Suspicion is miles better than Spellbound, the latter is more visually arresting and Criterion (wisely) seems to be pushing those kinds of films as upgrades, for the most part. I'd rather they release practically any other Hitch though

to this point - I struggle to see Spellbound, the last of the three formerly OOP Hitchcock/Selznick titles being the first one to go UHD, as visually stunning as the film (the Dali sequence!!) is. Rebecca and Notorious still remain incredibly popular whereas that one not so much, I'm surprised they didn't get to it in the Bluray era. that said, the deal could be sweetened if Criterion actually acquired The Paradine Case, which Kino let go out of print recently, but again, I'd be surprised if that went UHD. I do love The Lady Vanishes dearly, one of my favorite Hitchcocks, but I don't know if elements would be up to par there...the other British titles certainly not. we do really need Young and Innocent, Sabotage, and Secret Agent, I've only seen the first and it's another really great film (I actually prefer it to 39 Steps!)

I don't think Netflix has dried up. I think Roma and The Irishman will probably come to the format at some point, both are still very popular with big fanbases that will gladly repurchase the films again on disc format. I think Scorcese will probably prioritize other movies though (since Criterion seems dedicated to releasing one of his movies quarterly..), I'm sure it'll happen but I'm sure he would rather rescue After Hours or something first. what's Cuaron up to?

The Other Side of the Wind is one of those "confirmed but in perpetuity" deals, basically everyone who has worked on the Welles releases in the past have all confirmed its happening, and I think as more footage gets unearthed it gets pushed. whenever it is released, I'm sure it'll be a very comprehensive edition, as with all Criterion releases from the Welles filmography..

-lack of big ticket Janus titles. The Seventh Seal is the one I remain most surprised by, even with the BFI's disc I'm sure Criterion could sell enough copies in the states. even then, 8 1/2 and Juliet of the Spirits would be extremely stunning picks for Fellini, and are the two titles most likely of his to see the bump from Criterion (I'd say La Dolce Vita too obviously, but that's in Paramount's court)

I wonder if it's because Criterion might not be too big on splitting sets, and those are both from big sets. I suppose though that exceptions exist : the Bergman set still had subsequent individual releases, and we've seen individual releases from the Olympics and the WCP sets, so who knows.

I picked those two as an example because they were the first two Janus holdings I could think of (and want) that had 4K restorations and would suit the format. Tokyo Olympiad would be another dream 4K title if we were splitting boxes, but it's certainly all dependent.

the 6 titles that went OOP before (Malick is alive, of course) would probably be the 'biggest' to start, and I could see something like Nashville or Days of Heaven returning.

Days of Heaven would need a new restoration, since the old one isn't ageing so well and definitely isn't fit for a UHD release, but Nashville just got released on BD by Paramount themselves, and I think at some point, licences need to be clearer than "the BD is released by X but it doesn't mean there won't be a UHD from Y".

yes, on top of that every Paramount title that Criterion released on DVD and later upgraded to Bluray was simply the same reused master from the DVD, absolutely none of which have aged that well. they'd all need big overhauls, and that opens the other can of worms of who would do the restorations. it is worth noting that Kino is doing some of their own work on the Paramount titles they're doing on UHD, so maybe they'd let Criterion do the same?

on top of this, "Paramount Presents" (let's see how long that lasts) has still only done one UHD so far, Liberty Valance - no further have been announced.

The Tales of Hoffmann and Mississippi Masala would've been real knockouts with HDR, and I'm honestly really surprised Exotica won't be a UHD - feels like something that Arrow would've done.

I wonder how much of this lack of UHD releases stems from Criterion thinking those won't sell enough UHDs to justify investing into a UHD release and how much comes from the restorations possibly just having been done in SDR and Criterion still trying to avoid SDR UHDs .

yes, since as speculators forget, a 4K restoration doesn't always mean it's ready for a 4K disc, there's gotta be an HDR pass. there can definitely be good SDR UHDs as we've seen, but I'm sure the preference (as it should be) is for ones with HDR. The Virgin Suicides is of course the first SDR UHD from Criterion, but this was at the insistence of Sofia Coppola and Ed Lachmann as their intended look, and don't think it'lll be any sort of new trend going forward. it's certainly possible Egoyan could have felt the same for Exotica and ditto Nair for Mississippi Masala, but since Lachmann shot the latter too..I'm sure it was just a "this won't sell enough" situation.

I agree on Spellbound, the story behind it’s making is more interesting than the movie. Suspicion would be interesting because WB has already put it out through WAC, while Kane and Shaft were just WB releases. If they’re willing to license out WAC titles for UHD that opens up a huge can of worms, but at least we know they are willing to license certain non-WAC titles for sure.

Strangers in a Train isn’t WAC and would be an awesome choice. I think some people have predicted The Searchers, and that makes a lot of sense too. The dream for me would be a UHD of The Bandwagon because not only do I love the film, it would be a chance to get a Minnelli Criterion, because outside of Tea and Symphony there isn’t anything left not on Blu-Ray already, though I can totally see them putting that one out, I sure hope so.

ah but Shaft was a WAC title, so that can of worms has been opened already! I definitely have predicted The Searchers elsewhere - I used to be 100% about that coming to Criterion, but after George Feltenstein's recent comments about WB prioritizing color films for UHD..all bets are off. whoever it comes from, I would just like to see the film on the format, but I'd love if Criterion brought in the usual Ford scholars to talk about his biggest film in addition to that.

as mentioned in other posts, Le Samourai and Rules of the Game are already finished, restoration wise. I'm sure both will be on disc in a matter of time - it's been 11 years since ROTG hit Bluray and basically anyone that cares about Le Samourai, and even those that don't (me) know that the film deserves far better than it got on the previous Bluray. good decision of course by Criterion to not release the restoration that had been done, but also smart to at least give a 'temporary' fix. this is one that I certainly hope they'd correct the Bluray edition for as well, rather than just including their old disc

I wonder how much of this lack of UHD releases stems from Criterion thinking those won't sell enough UHDs to justify investing into a UHD release and how much comes from the restorations possibly just having been done in SDR and Criterion still trying to avoid SDR UHDs .

I can't recall if it was an email response shared on reddit or if Lee Kline said something on his podcast, but I remember getting confirmation that they were working on a SDR UHD.

it's The Virgin Suicides unless another is forthcoming. as covered elsewhere, it is confirmed that Coppola and Lachmann felt that SDR fit their intended look.

I think that covers everything!

[EddieLarkin]

The Virgin Suicides is 100% confirmed to be in HDR10. It is not SDR.

Criterion did say it would not use the available HDR range much beyond SDR though (but it does use the wider P3 colour gamut).

[ryannichols7]

The Virgin Suicides is 100% confirmed to be in HDR10. It is not SDR.

Criterion did say it would not use the available HDR range much beyond SDR though (but it does use the wider P3 colour gamut).

wow I totally missed where that was revealed, I swore their original email response said it would be SDR only. my bad! I'll be sure to pick that one up next month to see the difference between full DV and HDR10