The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

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knives
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#726 Post by knives » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:21 am

That's a beautiful write up on Heaven's Gate.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#727 Post by matrixschmatrix » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:34 am

Agreed, and great writeups generally.

I wanted to comment more on Nothing's post (which, incidentally, is the kind of post I wish he'd make more of)
Nothing wrote:Sausage, if one sees the western simply as an arbitrary ( :-") setting in which to act out a fantastical drama then one may have more use for a picture like The Naked Spur or Wagonmaster (although this doesn't appear to be the argument that tarpilot was using in reference to that framegrab...). But isn't this exceptionally convenient for those of white American heritage? A way simply to ignore the atrocities and injustices of the past - or, worse, to white-wash them, to replace reality with myth, just like the newspaperman in Liberty Valance?

Just because fiction is by definition fantastical/a work of imagination to some degree doesn't mean that such a work can't also engage meaningfully with the world. This to me is the difference between the classical western, which deals primarily in myth, and the revisionist western, which tries to marry that myth with a more accurate historical understanding (to give one small example, that gunfighters wouldn't hesitate to cheat in a duel, as seen in Pat Garrett & the Billy the Kid). Whilst the former can function as escapism as best, propaganda at worst, the latter, I believe, has the potential to contribute to a better understanding of both human culture and the human condition.
That's reductive to the nature of myth, though. I'm reminded of Shakespeare's history plays, which are comparable in many ways- favorable to the interests of the ruling powers of the day, a way to both bring history to life and to make the events within it palatable for his audience, and a narrativisation of events that were in real life far messier and more complex. Yet- would you consider Richard III and Henry V to be mere escapism and propaganda?

I mean, honestly, I prefer revisionist Westerns, too- just as in some ways, I prefer Throne of Blood to the far more conservative Macbeth- but this idea that anything that attributes qualities to people and institutions that we (or you) do not now believe cannot illuminate humanity and the human condition is foolish.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#728 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:03 am

Nothing wrote:Sausage, if one sees the western simply as an arbitrary ( :-") setting in which to act out a fantastical drama then one may have more use for a picture like The Naked Spur or Wagonmaster (although this doesn't appear to be the argument that tarpilot was using in reference to that framegrab...). But isn't this exceptionally convenient for those of white American heritage? A way simply to ignore the atrocities and injustices of the past - or, worse, to white-wash them, to replace reality with myth, just like the newspaperman in Liberty Valance?
This is a fallacy of the excluded middle. You're attempting to force a (false) choice between the one extreme of "white-washing" and the other extreme of dramatizing historical atrocity. These are not the only options: there is a vast middle ground where most Westerns actually exist in which they do neither, in which they are not concerned with themes about atrocity and colonialism, but which are using their very much cinematically invented landscape--not an arbitrary setting, but a fantastic one for images of beauty, isolation, lawlessness, harshness, nature itself to be overcome, ie. a landscape filled with dramatic possibility--to explore character types, themes, meanings, significances of their own devising which are no less pertinent for not being those in which you like to indulge your various idle resentments.
Nothing wrote:You then speak of the finale of Blood Meridian as fantasy, but would it not more aptly be described as allegory (or philosphy even)? Does The Judge speak for the violence, war and death present in our own world or in another?
It's not an allegory. The book does not compose a pattern of symbolic representations forming a unified secondary narrative underneath the first. Now, clearly Blood Meridian is talking about "our own world," but not as an historicist document. It's not making an historical point about the west, it's raising worldly violence to a visionary, apocalyptic intensity. This is why the Judge is eternal: he has always been here, and always will be here, wherever humans are, and he will not let anything exist except by his dispensation. The novel rises above the bounds of its historical setting to become something much larger, just as Moby-Dick grows and expands to become something much more than a 19th century whaling story. It's terribly reductionist to take the book as simply some comment on how badly Americans treated the Native Americans. At the most, the book is using that historical bit as a metonymy for something larger. This returns me to my point about the west being a fantastical kind of landscape: it's the perfect setting, perhaps the only setting, in which McCarthy could give his depiction of human violence its baroque, apocalyptic intensity, and that is because of its long association with myth, archetype, and other non-realistic modes.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#729 Post by Nothing » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:33 am

schmatrix, I guess I'm getting caught out (perhaps intentionally...) by Sausage's use of the word 'fantasy'... As you say, The Road is deeply engaged with human reality, despite a 'fantasy' setting (albeit one grounded in the possible), whereas The Naked Spur, imho, displays no such engagement. Perhaps the most important element therefore is not so much the reality of the setting but the psychological reality of the actors within that setting. Having said this, I find the historical setting of Blood Meridian ultimately far more productive and rewarding than the projected futurescape of The Road.

It's funny you mention Throne of Blood, btw, as this is perhaps the only Shakespeare adapation (the only Shakespeare?! 8-[ ) I've ever had any real liking for... Give me Webster any day...
Cold Bishop wrote:Nothing may trot his old Haydn/Beethoven comparison, accuse one of confusing influence for true quality, but Man of the West isn't simply a collection of half-baked ideas
Nor are Haydn's symphonies and string quartets! Actually, much of what you say about Man of the West is true (I did, after all, place it at No.11 on my list - if I hadn't done so, it wouldn't have topped the poll). The huge weakness in the film, however, is Cooper's character. At no point is he ever truly convincing as a reformed outlaw, as a man who once played second fiddle to Cobb's murderous rapist. He is too much the traditional western hero, the man of moral certainty, the heroic defender of women, etc, a convention that Mann is unable and/or perhaps unwilling ("We tell the story of simple men, not of professional assassins... the diagram of the emotions must be ascending") to transcend, and naturally the film suffers as a result. Leone and especially Peckinpah solved this problem with the creation of the anti-hero. By 1969, there was no Hays Code, nor any delusional Christian imperative, to insist that Pike Bishop and Billy the Kid must unconvincingly 'reform' before they can take centre stage as true Men of the West.

Anyway, that's a nice defense / explication of Heaven's Gate. I think part of the film's critical failure at the time was due to Cimino's bizarre ideological about-face. Rightwing fans of The Deer Hunter were inevitably disappointed / enraged, whilst the leftists who may have appreciated the film were no longer paying attention to (or felt they could not trust) his vision. It is undoubtably the most ambitious and penetrating of the revisionist westerns, albeit, for me, not quite as perfectly realised as the best of Leone and Peckinpah. It is also a film that everyone should see theatrically if they possibly can, for the sense of atmosphere and event that it generates and also to fully appreciate Vilmos Zsigmond's miraculous cinematography (the quality of Cimino's work was to irretrievably plummet once these two parted ways).

So which important films did we neglect to mention prior to the Poll domino? Was Heaven's Gate one of them?

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#730 Post by matrixschmatrix » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:44 am

Nothing wrote:It's funny you mention Throne of Blood, btw, as this is perhaps the only Shakespeare adapation (the only Shakespeare?! 8-[ ) I've ever had any real liking for... Give me Webster any day...
Haha, sometimes I'd be prepared to swear that the reason your views are so contentious is that you don't actually like art
Nothing wrote:Anyway, that's a nice defense / explication of Heaven's Gate. I think part of the film's critical failure at the time was due to Cimino's bizarre ideological about-face. Rightwing fans of The Deer Hunter were inevitably disappointed / enraged, whilst the leftists who may have appreciated the film were no longer paying attention to (or felt they could not trust) his vision.
While I agree with what I would assume your critique of the Deer Hunter to be- the the treatment of the Viet Cong and the Vietnamese generally- I don't think that view of it is generally reflected in the criticism or the reactions of the time. I think at that point that such depictions were so commonplace as to be almost invisible, and the movie seemed more remarkable for the argument it presented about the psychological impact of the war on the characters (which is certainly a true factor, whatever the actual cause of that impact) and as such was seen as a leftwing response to John Wayne style gung-ho nonsense. I think the reason people perceived Heaven's Gate as a failure is that a.) it's a fairly difficult film and b.) everyone was told it was a failure before going in. The only way you're going to get around that narrative is to have something that is as obviously, gut-poundingly visceral as Apocalypse Now, I think.
Last edited by matrixschmatrix on Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#731 Post by Nothing » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:02 am

schamtrix wrote:While I agree with what I would assume your critique of the Deer Hunter to be- the the treatment of the Viet Cong and the Vietnamese generally- I don't think that view of it is generally reflected in the criticism or the reactions of the time.
Not in America certainly, although Jane Fonda had the right idea. With Henry Kissinger now chairing the Bilderberg group, and the reputation of Heaven's Gate still murky, it seems very little has changed...
Mr Sausage wrote:This is a fallacy of the excluded middle.
Inevitably I must disagree. I do not believe I am discounting the possibility of a middle ground in my appraisal, however I shall continue to judge a film, at least in significant part, by the degree of its honesty. Man of the West has one central failing, as I previously outlined, but is otherwise unusually honest for a 50s western in its depiction of both human relations and American history. Whereas depicting a western bounty hunter as an essentially upstanding Christian man of great moral integrity and empathy, the premise at the heart of both The Naked Spear and Ride Lonesome, is something I find deeply and irretrievably dishonest, ergo both films saw no vote from me.
Nothing wrote:[Blood Meridian is] not an allegory. The book does not compose a pattern of symbolic representations forming a unified secondary narrative underneath the first. Now, clearly Blood Meridian is talking about "our own world," but not as an historicist document. It's not making an historical point about the west, it's raising worldly violence to a visionary, apocalyptic intensity... It's terribly reductionist to take the book as simply some comment on how badly Americans treated the Native Americans.
It would be reductionist, of course. But this what I meant by 'allegory', that the Judge is not only a specific character in western history but a symbolic representation of worldly violence throughout and until the end of human history (and perhaps beyond). I disagree, however, that this violence occurs in the book on a 'apocalyptic' or 'fantastic' level, although it might appear that way to the bourgeoisie. Thankfully (or not so thankfully) modern technology can bring us closer to the reality of this worldly violence than ever before.
Last edited by Nothing on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#732 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:06 am

matrixschmatrix wrote:That's reductive to the nature of myth, though.
Oh, yeah. Nothing doesn't seem to understand that myth is not an escape from reality, but the primary mode through which human culture has tried to order, make sense of, and finding meaning in the world. Far from being a disengagement from the world, it is perhaps the very first true engagement we had with it. All of narrative story-telling essentially comes out of myth. They displace it in their own ways, but myth's essential structures remain.

When a knight in a story vanquishes a dragon (Beowulf vs the dragon, or Sigurd vs Fafnir), it could seem like empty diversion, but what's actually happening is a figure of order is vanquishing a figure of disorder so that the world can be purged of its negative elements. It's a story--granted an abstract one--of the human endeavour to fix the nasty parts of human life in this world. The major mythic expression of this comes in the form of the hero, Jesus, returning to vanquish the serpent/Great Red Dragon and restore the world/the cosmos from imperfect chaos to perfect order. A much more displaced, tho' often still mythic, version of this story is the common Western narrative of heroes confronting villains who bring chaos and disorder to an already unstable landscape on the verge of being ordered (through railroads, boomtowns, livestock farms, ect.). Hell, these Westerns often used Native Americans as figures of disorder and chaos out of which the world should be righted, which is racist, but not motivated chiefly by racism. At base, these stories are not disengagements from the world, they are a continuation of the ancient theme of how human beings understand and deal with the presence of evil, chaos, disorder, and with our precarious position in a world that we perceive as being bad but wish to make good. They are stories essential to our consciousnesses.
nothing wrote:I disagree, however, that this violence occurs in the book on a 'apocalyptic' or 'fantastical' level, although it might appear that way to the bourgeoisie.
Ugh. You're obviously misunderstanding my use of the words fantastical and apocalyptic. The violence of the novel is undeniably something that could actually happen, and no doubt often did. But McCarthy's language aestheticizes it so that it becomes more than your usual human atrocity, it becomes a violence to end all violence, to finally push the world over into its final judgement. Again, the presence of The Judge is key, here.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#733 Post by matrixschmatrix » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:11 am

Nothing wrote: I disagree, however, that this violence occurs in the book on a 'apocalyptic' or 'fantastical' level, although it might appear that way to the bourgeoisie. Thankfully (or not so thankfully) modern technology can bring us closer to the reality of this worldly violence than ever before.
Oh, honestly, I'd remind you of the bush full of spitted babies. McCarthy was obviously going for an environment of heightened, unreal violence, however much it may be impossible actually to create something more brutal in fiction than can or has occurred in reality, and the book is very much an Apocalypse in the most classic sense of the word- a heightened, feverish story about overturning and forces beyond the ken of ordinary people. Godzilla is an Apocalypse, too, but the destruction in it is obviously tied very closely to violence in the real world.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#734 Post by Nothing » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:18 am

I think that ordering and comprehending the world are two different things. The Beowulf myth, Christianity and classical westerns are outmoded and failed and futile attempts to achieve the former. Historical analysis, modern science, existential and Marxist philosophy - and revionist westerns! - can perhaps aid the latter.

Schmatrix - I'm sure I've read somewhere that the bush of babies comes from an actual historical account.
Last edited by Nothing on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#735 Post by matrixschmatrix » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:21 am

Nothing wrote:I think that ordering and comprehending the world are two different things. The Beowulf myth, Christianity and classical westerns attempt (and inevitably fail) to achieve the former. Historical analysis, existential and Marxist philosophy - and revionist westerns! - can perhaps aid the latter.
So, you aim to comprehending the world by disregarding the contributions of what, 35,000 years of human history, give or take? Does that not seem like a problem to you, that you believe you understand human nature yet you ignore one of the key things that as far as I know literally every human culture in history that has any kind of a record at all has in common, the creation of myth?

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#736 Post by Nothing » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:24 am

Marx, Nietzsche and Darwin have shown us the way.
schamtrix wrote:you aim to comprehending the world by disregarding the contributions of what, 35,000 years of human history, give or take?
You forget that, for 500,000 years before that, mankind was roaming the landscape like an animal whose sole needs were to eat, sleep and procreate. Is this a history that you also wish to disregard?
Last edited by Nothing on Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#737 Post by matrixschmatrix » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:28 am

Nothing wrote:
matrixschmatrix wrote:So, you aim to comprehending the world by disregarding the contributions of what, 35,000 years of human history, give or take?
Marx and Nietzsche have shown us the way...
How can you admire Nietzsche and deny the essential importance of mythology?

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#738 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:36 am

Nothing wrote:I think that ordering and comprehending the world are two different things.
What? Of course this is wrong. To put things into order is an act of comprehension. Disorder into order, incomprehension into comprehension, that's how it works. The one implies, and is the impetus for, the other.
Nothing wrote:The Beowulf myth, Christianity and classical westerns attempt (and inevitably fail) to achieve the former. Historical analysis, modern science, existential and Marxist philosophy - and revionist westerns! - can perhaps aid the latter.
Yes, yes, you have a different opinion of what the world means than they do, you never cease to declaim your political, social, and philosophical allegiances. But it's irrelevant whether you agree with this or that author's, this or that tradition's, attempt to comprehend life. My point remains the following: they are not disengagements from the world, and the people who read them, love them, study them, are not doing it to disengage from the world either, however you personally disagree with what they find. Moreso, you're ignoring the enormous amount of beauty and imagination that went into arranging these vast structures, feats that are, frankly, one of the very greatest endeavours a human can engage in. It is only by continuing to work our creative imaginations to such peaks, and to appreciate such work, that we can have any hope.

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Lighthouse
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#739 Post by Lighthouse » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:45 am

Curious about these films:

Buckling Broadway (the Ford western from 17, which means it is no longer lost?)
Carne de horca
From Hell to Eternity
In the Land of the War Canoes
the Invaders
the Purple Plain
Valerie
Wagon Train (the TV series?)
We Were Strangers (the Huston film?)
White of the Desert
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Forrest Taft
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#740 Post by Forrest Taft » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:12 am

Lighthouse wrote:Curious about these films:

Buckling Broadway (the Ford western from 17, which means it is no longer lost?)
A print was discovered in 2002, and the movie is available as an extra on Criterion's Stagecoach release.

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Cold Bishop
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#741 Post by Cold Bishop » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:23 am

As mentioned, Bucking Broadway is on the Criterion Stagecoach

I don't know what Hell to Eternity (I'm assuming it's this) or The Purple Plain are doing here, as they're both WWII films. Perhaps they meant Karlson's Gunman's Walk and Parrish's Saddle the Wind? Ditto We Were Strangers, which is more convincing as a film noir than a Western.

Carne de horca seems to be a Spanish Western with a bit of a reputation. I'm intrigued

In the Land of the War Canoes was discussed a few pages back, but it is a 1914 "documentary" presaging the likes of Nanook of the North and Chang: A Drama of the Wilderness. The Invaders is the early Francis Ford and William Ince short. I'm assuming zedz did the voting here.

Valerie is Gerd Oswald's Western Rashomon, with Sterling Hayden and Anita Ekberg. Surprisingly, I'm not the one who voted for it, despite being a big fan of it, as well as Oswald's Fury at Showdown (have yet to track down The Brass Legend)... both of which could have benefited from being seen in OAR. Pretty strong stuff nonetheless.
Edit: What do you know?... The Brass Legend is now out on MGM Burn-on-Demand

Wagon Train may also be the Tim Holt Western, which always seemed to be one of the more well-regarded films of his. Or perhaps someone meant The War Wagon, in which case, we're settling this outside.

White Sun... is the tremendously popular Oestern. Shouldn't be a hard film to come by.
Last edited by Cold Bishop on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lighthouse
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#742 Post by Lighthouse » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:50 am

RobertAltman wrote:
Lighthouse wrote:Curious about these films:

Buckling Broadway (the Ford western from 17, which means it is no longer lost?)
A print was discovered in 2002, and the movie is available as an extra on Criterion's Stagecoach release.
Are there more of the old Ford westerns available next to this one and Straight Shootin?

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Lighthouse
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#743 Post by Lighthouse » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:05 am

Cold Bishop wrote:
I don't know what Hell to Eternity (I'm assuming it's this) of The Purple Plain are doing here, as they're both WWII films. Perhaps they meant Karlson's Gunman's Walk and Parrish's Saddle the Wind? Ditto We Were Strangers, which is more convincing as a film noir than a Western.

Carne de horca seems to be a Spanish Western with a bit of a reputation. I'm intrigued



Valerie is Gerd Oswald's Western Rashomon, with Sterling Hayden and Anita Ekberg.
Wagon Train may also be the Tim Holt Western, which always seemed to be one of the more well-regarded films of his. Or perhaps someone meant The War Wagon, in which case, we're settling this outside.

White Sun... is the tremendously popular Oestern. Shouldn't be a hard film to come by.
I'm assuming it is this one but called White Sun of the Desert:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066565/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of Carne de horca there are 2 Spanish westerns with this title. Probably the one from 73?

Can you give me a link to the Gerd Oswald film?
Last edited by Lighthouse on Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cold Bishop
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#744 Post by Cold Bishop » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:06 am

By my count, these are the only surviving silent Fords:

Straight Shooting
Bucking Broadway
Hell Bent
By Indian Post
Just Pals (Fragments)
Cameo Kirby
North of Hudson Bay (Fragments)
The Iron Horse (Available on DVD)
Lightnin’
Kentucky Pride
The Shamrock Handicap (bootlegs purportedly out there)
3 Bad Men (Available on DVD)
The Blue Eagle (Fragments; bootlegs purportedly out there)
Upstream
Four Sons (Available on DVD)
Mother Macree (Fragments)
Hangman’s House (Available on DVD)
Riley the Cop (Once shown on AMC; possibly bootleged)

RE: Gerd Oswald - No can do. I've seen a really awful looking Valerie pop up in the ether every once in a while claiming to be a VHS-Rip; I saw it on VHS and it never looked that bad. Fury at Showdown was actually on Hulu about a year ago.

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Lighthouse
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#745 Post by Lighthouse » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:17 am

Cold Bishop wrote:By my count, these are the only surviving silent Fords:

Straight Shooting
Bucking Broadway
Hell Bent
By Indian Post
Just Pals (Fragments)

North of Hudson Bay (Fragments)
The Iron Horse (Available on DVD)

3 Bad Men (Available on DVD)
I know The Iron Horse and 3 Bad Men very well, but not he others. Is Just Pals a western?

I found it on IMDB. Never heard about it. Is it a real western or more a half-western?

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#746 Post by Wu.Qinghua » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:07 am

I've voted for 'White Sun of the Desert', which, as Cold Bishop has already mentioned, a popular Soviet appropriation of the western formula. It's out on DVD, but it can also be found on Mosfilm's Youtube channel (link).
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Lighthouse
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#747 Post by Lighthouse » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:13 am

Not really a western, is it?

How close is it? Like the Good the Bad the Weird?

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Wu.Qinghua
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#748 Post by Wu.Qinghua » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:17 am

Like many genre films of the 1960/70s, White Sun of the Desert is a somewhat hybrid film, merging the western formula with conventions of the Soviet civil war films. All in all, it's a slower and more atmospheric film with a fine soundtrack, which is not as action-packed as 'Good, Bad & Weird'.

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knives
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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#749 Post by knives » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:34 pm

Cold Bishop wrote:The Invaders is the early Francis Ford and William Ince short. I'm assuming zedz did the voting here.
Sadly he didn't. That was all me.

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Re: The Western List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Proje

#750 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:41 pm

I actually have Ford's Shamrock Handicap, interested parties should PM me

And I stand by my vote for We Were Strangers-- if Treasure of Sierra Madre or Viva Zapata! fit, so does this

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