Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Project)

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zedz
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#326 Post by zedz » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:53 pm

swo17 wrote:Plate-forme mobile et Train électrique
See it here. Of all the early actuality films, this one feels the most to me like the perfect combination of being both visually interesting and capturing moments from a pivotal event (the 1900 World's Fair).
My high ranking early actuality film will be Interior New York Subway 14th Street to 42nd Street. The world's first structuralist film! I'm also considering the Lumieres' mysteriously gorgeous Laveuses sur la riviere from 1897, but fear I won't have enough room.

79 Primaveras was being juggled as one candidate for my obligatory Alvarez slot, so your lobbying has nudged that onto my list. Yes, we are totally corrupt!

EDIT: Oh, and Mitchell & Kenyon's Tram Rides Through Nottingham is another actuality I'll be voting for.

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swo17
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#327 Post by swo17 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:16 pm

Also, for anyone who cares, I thought I'd share my thoughts on where I'm drawing the line between documentary and fiction for docufiction hybrids. Namely, if a film takes the form of a documentary and could reasonably pass as legitimate to someone who hasn't researched its authenticity, I'm allowing it. So I'm ruling in things like Las Hurdes or Finis terrae (even though the dilemma that drives the latter's plot is merely a reenactment). Whereas I'm ruling out things like Louisiana Story (which is really just a very authentic-seeming dramatic film, probably often labeled a documentary because of everything else that Flaherty directed) and And Life Goes On (which I suppose is just like many other Kiarostami films--a work of fiction that flirts with real elements to add a layer of intrigue).

Or at least that's the definition I've settled on for today.

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swo17
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#328 Post by swo17 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:12 pm

zedz wrote:I'm also considering the Lumieres' mysteriously gorgeous Laveuses sur la riviere from 1897, but fear I won't have enough room.
Yes, that's another great one, which people can watch here. It's like a well composed photograph come to life, which must have really been something to people that were used to just looking at still photographs. And you could probably write an essay about the societal implications as well, if you were so inclined. I'll have to make room on my list for this one.

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Minkin
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#329 Post by Minkin » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:03 am

swo17 wrote:Or at least that's the definition I've settled on for today.
What is your take on the mixture of outright documentary elements hidden within a narrative? Haxan or Different from the Others come to mind -where the narrative can be seen as a protracted "recreation" of events (and they throw in some lecture bits too). Innocence Unprotected is also a strange case - since it hybrids a 'making of' alongside the actual film it is discussing. Or there's also Kluge's In Danger and Deep Distress the Middle-way spells Death -which focuses around 4 narrative plots - but the characters interact with actual events/footage (parades, youth revolts, etc).

I was planning on all four of those making my list, but I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this particular structure - of mixing both documentary and narrative structures in unusual manners. I think it makes both elements stronger - since the documentary aspects are given better life/depth and the narrative has a greater sense of credibility. Anyone have any other suggestions that are similar to the four I've listed?

If it helps at all, the BFI seem to think Close-up, My Winnipeg, Spinal Tap and Las Hurdes are all documentaries.

Since I'm posting, I'll give one of my famous "too late to make a difference anymore" recommendations:

Many of the Eames films are superb. There's of course the overplayed Powers of Ten (though excellent regardless). I do prefer the film 901: After 45 Years of working - which documents their workshop/living space prior to the interior being dismantled and shipped off to different institutions. The narrator can be a tad annoying at times, but he often drops out and lets the space showcase itself.

For early actuality films - perhaps people should check out the Westinghouse series (things like Assembling and Testing Turbines) - of which my favorite is Girls Taking Time Checks - since you get a fairly humorous mixture of embarrassed camera shyness, prude gentility, and a few hams - all in an odd assembly line of women clocking out for the day. There's also Edison's Pan-American Exposition by night - with its contrast between day and the night's illuminations (still quite impressive).

I'll lastly make a final case for Huell Howser's Newberry Springs episode. He travels to the small town in the middle of the desert - in search of a buffalo ranch and ostrich farm (which he never finds, and the locals seem to not know about either). Instead he comes across a bizarre array of desert people - by just wandering around the town and talking to people - like the lady who collects donkey and elephant things (stuffed animals, etc), or the "agate licker" - guy with all of his rocks, and the infamous Bagdad Cafe. The Cafe is perhaps Huell's best known visit - since its such a surreal experience with its swearing "general of the world" crazy old man, picture of Burt Lancaster that nobody is sure why its there, and store employee who seems to be terrified of Huell at first. Its all wonderfully strange. Unfortunately, I can't find the episode online (other than the Bagdad Cafe clip) - but if you have Itunes, you can download the episode as part of the California's Gold Huell Howser podcast - so I believe that's the only way to see it presently.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#330 Post by Lemmy Caution » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:33 am

Minkin wrote:there's also Kluge's In Danger and Deep Distress the Middle-way spells Death -which focuses around 4 narrative plots - but the characters interact with actual events/footage (parades, youth revolts, etc).
Are there any other Kluge docs you'd rec highly?
I have that whole German Filmmuseum set and could get a few in before the doc list deadline.
Zedz?

Also, any Varda docs people would highly rec?
I've seen Gleaners, Beaches, Mur Murs and a few others, but have that whole recent Arte Edition set and have only gone through parts of it.
Last edited by Lemmy Caution on Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jindianajonz
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#331 Post by jindianajonz » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:49 am

If you don't care about money, or at least find $25 for a single television episode to be a good value, the Huell Howser Newberry Springs episode is available for purchase

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swo17
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#332 Post by swo17 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:10 pm

Minkin wrote:
swo17 wrote:Or at least that's the definition I've settled on for today.
What is your take on the mixture of outright documentary elements hidden within a narrative?
I think I'm fine with those, though I might make exceptions on a case-by-case basis. For Häxan at least, the purpose of the film is to instruct about the history of witchcraft and to draw parallels to modern times. Obviously any scenes intended to depict practices pre-1890 are by necessity going to have to be reconstructions. And of course, that's where much of the film's appeal lies, in its classic horror visuals.

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martin
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#333 Post by martin » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:05 pm

Then there's a film like Sentiment (2003), Tomas Hejtmanek's film about the director Frantisek Vlácil. Vlácil was dead when the film was shot and was played by the actor Jirí Kodet. But in my world this is still a documentary - very far from the 'biopic' genre. But IMDb has 'drama' as its only genre. A borderline case? It's a very good film by the way. I guess most of us have hundreds of documentarys about films, directors, actors and actresses, because of the DVD and BD supplements. But this, in my mind, is one of the most unusual and most interesting of such films.
FerdinandGriffon wrote:You must watch Pollet's L'Ordre, from '73, about a leper colony. A devastating and haunting record of communal memory, set to unpopulated images that nevertheless hum with presence.
Thanks. It's on youtube and seems very interesting, but I'll probably need to find a subbed version to fully grasp it (although the French subbed parts where the lepers were inaudible or less comprehensible helped somewhat).

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swo17
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#334 Post by swo17 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:53 pm

martin wrote:Méditerranée (Jean-Daniel Pollet & Volker Schlöndorff, 1963)
This would probably have been my spotlight title if I had joined the discussion soon enough to give people a chance to watch it. Beautiful images, tracking shots and pans are repeted over and over while a narrator reads an avantgarde text. Hypnotic, and endlessly fascinating.
This was fantastic! Is it available on DVD anywhere?

Also, I just realized that the link I shared yesterday for Laveuses sur la rivière wasn't publically shared. Here is a working link.

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zedz
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#335 Post by zedz » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:51 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Minkin wrote:there's also Kluge's In Danger and Deep Distress the Middle-way spells Death -which focuses around 4 narrative plots - but the characters interact with actual events/footage (parades, youth revolts, etc).
Are there any other Kluge docs you'd rec highly?
I have that whole German Filmmuseum set and could get a few in before the doc list deadline.
Zedz?
Ein Arzt aus Halberstadt is a work of towering genius, but DON'T go and watch it. Instead, you need to watch all of those early shorts or you won't even see where the genius lies.

It's such a one-of-a-kind film that I can't even bring myself to vote for it on the documentary list for the following reasons. Serious spoilers follow (reading this will deprive you of great potential pleasure if you ever think you might watch this film):
SpoilerShow
1) its brilliance and meaning entirely depend on a casual reference to an otherwise unrelated short film made a few years earlier;
2) that reference really only works when you stumble across it. Kluge buried the link like a timebomb, so it would only go off and make sense of the film in the case of somebody happening to see the two films in some kind of not-too-close proximity
SpoilerShow
- which is why I'm being so vague; and
SpoilerShow
3) the discovery of that reference reveals that the film is not actually a documentary.

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zedz
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#336 Post by zedz » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:58 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:Also, any Varda docs people would highly rec?
I've seen the Gleaners and a few others, but have that whole recent set and have only got through part of it.
I'm voting for Ulysse, and Ydessa, the Bears & etc. looks like a near miss at this stage.

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martin
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#337 Post by martin » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:08 pm

swo17 wrote:This was fantastic! Is it available on DVD anywhere?
It's on a three-disc set with five of Pollet's films. It's also released as a 1-disc edition with three of his shorter documentaries.

These are probably not English friendly?

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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#338 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:10 pm

How about Man With A Movie Camera? I'm hoping it is OK for the list.

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swo17
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#339 Post by swo17 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:20 pm

Certainly. It's a day in the life in Russia.

Technically, everything is "OK" for your list. But if something is too much of a stretch to fit the genre and you are the only one to vote for it, then you're really just throwing one of your fifty precious votes away.

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domino harvey
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#340 Post by domino harvey » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:46 pm

I doubt if even ten of my fifty get another vote, and I don't really care #rockstarswagger

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swo17
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#341 Post by swo17 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:57 pm

My comment only applies to borderline cases where it's questionable whether the film fits the genre. No one should ever leave a beloved film off their list purely because they don't think anyone else will vote for it. But hopefully people are talking those films up so they at least have a fighting chance.

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Minkin
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#342 Post by Minkin » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:19 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:Are there any other Kluge docs you'd rec highly?
I have that whole German Filmmuseum set and could get a few in before the doc list deadline.
I haven't seen as much as Zedz, but Brutality in Stone (1961) - Kluge's first short film -which shows decrepit Nazi buildings with a soundtrack of Nazi speeches, radio broadcasts etc. and
Hinrichtung eines Elefanten (2000) - About the Edison film (electrocuting an Elephant) - then Kluge examines modern views towards elephants as a source of entertainment (trying to connect the inhumanity back to Edison), and then a discussion with a zookeeper and how they euthanize the animals.

both will certainly be making my list.

Since we are throwing out titles, here's another: Mighty Times: The Children's March (2004) -about the Birmingham civil rights marches/protests though I am entirely biased since a family member was involved with the making of the film (it is excellent though, and won the Oscar for documentary short if that matters anything). The guy behind Shogun Assassin made it, so there's also that.

I'll also agree with Domino in my love for the industrial educational shorts of the 50s/60s. Perversion for Profit comes to mind, which discusses why pornography and homosexuality is going to destroy America, just as it destroyed every other great society (the camera focuses a bit too long on the muscley dudes in the magazines, so one has to wonder about the filmmaker's sensibilities towards the subject). The Case Study series is also very interesting - as they discuss one particular drug, its effects and how they destroyed some teen's life. Some of the "here's what drugs are like" effects resemble Brakhage. The LSD one is the most entertaining (an innocent hot dog does get murdered though...).

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#343 Post by Lemmy Caution » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:58 am

Lemmy Caution wrote:Are there any other Kluge docs you'd rec highly?
zedz wrote: Ein Arzt aus Halberstadt is a work of towering genius, but DON'T go and watch it. Instead, you need to watch all of those early shorts or you won't even see where the genius lies.
Ask Zedz a simple question and he goes all Raul Ruiz/Borges on you in answer.
I'll have to look for that disc once my head stops spinning.
Somehow, now I feel my question wasn't complicated enough ...
I hope you mean all the shorts on this two-disc package
Image
and not all the shorts in the entire set ...
Minkin wrote: I haven't seen as much as Zedz, but Brutality in Stone (1961) - Kluge's first short film -which shows decrepit Nazi buildings with a soundtrack of Nazi speeches, radio
broadcasts etc. and
Hinrichtung eines Elefanten (2000) - About the Edison film (electrocuting an Elephant) - then Kluge ...
I'm tempted to go back and re-watch those two docs, but it would be hard not to get absorbed into the complete discs. I can't imagine just watching Brutality in Stone without getting sucked into Yesterday Girl and then Part-Time Work of a Domestic Slave. If anyone wants an entry point into Kluge, that 2-disc Edition Filmmuseum set is tremendously vibrant.
Dang, now that I think about it, those two docs would really benefit form being seen on their own and not just after viewing the Kluge features, as I initially did.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#344 Post by Lemmy Caution » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:09 am

Lemmy Caution wrote:Also, any Varda docs people would highly rec?
zedz wrote: I'm voting for Ulysse, and Ydessa, the Bears & etc. looks like a near miss at this stage.
I probably can't convince myself Jacquot de Nantes is a documentary, but I might consider slipping L'univers de Jacques Demy on to my list.

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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#345 Post by bamwc2 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:32 pm

With my final list submitted, here are a few random observations:

One of my spotlights finished in my top five, another just outside of the top ten, and the third very nearly missed charting on my list all together!

Breakdown by country:

Canada: 1
Denmark: 1
France: 7
Germany: 1
Japan: 3
Sweden: 1
Syria: 1
US: 26
UK: 3
USSR: 3
West Germany: 3

Titles on my list that I watched for this project or a decade list that overlapped with this one: 15

Directors with more than one entry on my list: Kazuo Hara, Marcel Ophüls, Orson Welles, Frederick Wiseman.

Since this is the Criterion forum, number of entries on my list that they've released: 7

My next top ten:

51. A Brief History of Time (Errol Morris, 1991)
52. Only the Young (Elizabeth Mims and Jason Tippet)
53. Berlin: Symphony of a Great City (Walter Ruttmann, 1927)
54. Hoop Dreams (Steve James, 1994)
55. In the Land of the Deaf (Nicolas Philibert, 1992)
56. The Atomic Cafe (Jayne Loader, et al., 1982)
57. The Autobiography of Nicolae Ceausescu (Andrei Ujica, 2010)
58. Hearts Of Darkness: A Filmmaker’s Apocalypse (Fax Bahr, et al., 1991)
59. Swimming to Cambodia (Jonathan Demme, 1987)
60. Beaches of Agnes (Agnes Varda)

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zedz
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#346 Post by zedz » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:40 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Lemmy Caution wrote:Are there any other Kluge docs you'd rec highly?
zedz wrote: Ein Arzt aus Halberstadt is a work of towering genius, but DON'T go and watch it. Instead, you need to watch all of those early shorts or you won't even see where the genius lies.
Ask Zedz a simple question and he goes all Raul Ruiz/Borges on you in answer.
I'll have to look for that disc once my head stops spinning.
Somehow, now I feel my question wasn't complicated enough ...
I hope you mean all the shorts on this two-disc package
Image
and not all the shorts in the entire set ...
I watched all the films in the entire set in the order of release, and that seemed to me the absolutely best way to encounter the peculiar brilliance of Ein Arzt aus Halberstadt. You'll definitely "get it" by watching just the contents of that disc, but in a way that's only slightly less spoilsporty than me explaining everything to you on a bulletin board.

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zedz
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#347 Post by zedz » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:56 pm

Okay, I've taken the plunge and submitted my list because spending any more time on it would risk things getting stupidly arbitrary.

My "next ten" were:
51. Ydessa, the Bears and etc. (Agnes Varda, 2004)
52. Tabloid (Morris, 2010)
53. Etre et Avoir (Philibert, 2002)
54. Fata Morgana (Werner Herzog, 1971)
55. Leviathan (Castaing-Taylor / Paravel, 2012)
56. Trade Tattoo (Lye, 1937)
57. South (Hurley, 1919)
58. Las Hurdes (Bunuel, 1933)
59. Land of Silence and Darkness (Werner Herzog, 1971)
60. Lift (Marc Isaacs, 2001)

Wonky Stats Department:

Number of films consisting of a single shot: 4
Number of films containing no documentary footage: 2

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domino harvey
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#348 Post by domino harvey » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:42 pm

Ha, Only the Young is doomed to be Orphaned now since it's on my list. So is the Atomic Cafe but I bet someone else votes for it.

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domino harvey
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#349 Post by domino harvey » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:57 pm

Also, if you want to delve into just one studio's output of classic educational films, here's 146 Coronet educational films up for free

bamwc2
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Re: Documentaries List Discussion & Suggestions (Genre Proje

#350 Post by bamwc2 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:52 pm

With just a few days left, are we going to get any hints, Matrix?

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