Erich von Stroheim
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: Erich von Stroheim
Was Welles really that bad? I don't doubt he had an ego, but I never got the impression that he was worse than your average Hollywood director. Most accounts I've read about Citizen Kane and Touch of Evil (up until the studio decided to reshoot and recut it) paint him as being great to work with, even tolerant of people who didn't do their job well (like the actor playing the border patrol cop in Touch of Evil who couldn't remember his lines - he refused to fire him).
Back to Stroheim, I just saw Queen Kelly - such a promising unfinished film, I absolutely loved it. One of my colleagues compared Stroheim's films to television in their episodic nature, and I'm inclined to agree, especially after Queen Kelly - when you look at the way they're structured, they moved from one (more or less) self-contained portion to another. It's like watching a season of modern day television (rather than, say, a serial from back-in-the-day), where each episode is a concentrated development of one aspect of the season's over-arching narrative.
Back to Stroheim, I just saw Queen Kelly - such a promising unfinished film, I absolutely loved it. One of my colleagues compared Stroheim's films to television in their episodic nature, and I'm inclined to agree, especially after Queen Kelly - when you look at the way they're structured, they moved from one (more or less) self-contained portion to another. It's like watching a season of modern day television (rather than, say, a serial from back-in-the-day), where each episode is a concentrated development of one aspect of the season's over-arching narrative.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: Erich von Stroheim
Yeah, I think Welles' problem was more his undisguised contempt for the studio brass (and general self-confidence), not any problems he had working with his fellow filmmakers and actors. If he were such an arsehole, he wouldn't have been able to get various buddies to do free cameos in Touch of Evil.
And if we're now including Cimino among the ranks of Stroheim and Welles as a film 'genius', it must be on the strength of the films he never made.
And if we're now including Cimino among the ranks of Stroheim and Welles as a film 'genius', it must be on the strength of the films he never made.
- Cold Bishop
- Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 9:45 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
Re: Erich von Stroheim
It wasn't just studio brass: he seemed to have a pathological knee-jerk reaction against all money-men. The guy pretty much refused to schmooze financiers - perhaps as a flawed method of ascertaining how much freedom he'd retain on a film - and I really can't help but think it was largely his fault he didn't get many of his independent projects funded (the too-easily-bruised egos of most producers didn't help). Likewise, Stroheim's seemingly defiance to curb the scope of his projects (or to choose them smaller) ultimately did him in, probably more than his tyrannous behaviour.
I'm certainly being cheeky about Cimino, but if there's any modern equivalent to these two, an American director who's abbreviated career will be rued by cineaste decades from now, it's probably Cimino. He's about the only "active" American filmmaker I can think of who's capable of working with the palette of a Stroheim or Griffith (although, like much of the latter's work, his genius paradoxically manifests itself in the way his ambition overreaches his talent), and that's ultimately been his undoing. But I'd agree that the projects he didn't get to make since Heaven's Gate sound more fascinating that most he did (although I attest there's glimpses of genius in his subsequent films, albeit diminishing in their brilliance as the films diminished in scope). I do think, more tragically than, say, Stroheim, Cimino could have flourished within the modern studio system, if only he could find a Bill Pohlad-like producer to stay in his corner (he briefly had one in David Puttnam, before he was ousted by Coca-Cola after a notorious year running Columbia)
Which does bring me to my question: does anyone know of which films Stroheim wanted to direct or had the possibly of making, that failed to materialize? We know of the Heart of Darkness's and the Don Quixote's of Welles, but I don't believe I've ever heard of Stroheim's unyielding pursuits.
I'm certainly being cheeky about Cimino, but if there's any modern equivalent to these two, an American director who's abbreviated career will be rued by cineaste decades from now, it's probably Cimino. He's about the only "active" American filmmaker I can think of who's capable of working with the palette of a Stroheim or Griffith (although, like much of the latter's work, his genius paradoxically manifests itself in the way his ambition overreaches his talent), and that's ultimately been his undoing. But I'd agree that the projects he didn't get to make since Heaven's Gate sound more fascinating that most he did (although I attest there's glimpses of genius in his subsequent films, albeit diminishing in their brilliance as the films diminished in scope). I do think, more tragically than, say, Stroheim, Cimino could have flourished within the modern studio system, if only he could find a Bill Pohlad-like producer to stay in his corner (he briefly had one in David Puttnam, before he was ousted by Coca-Cola after a notorious year running Columbia)
Which does bring me to my question: does anyone know of which films Stroheim wanted to direct or had the possibly of making, that failed to materialize? We know of the Heart of Darkness's and the Don Quixote's of Welles, but I don't believe I've ever heard of Stroheim's unyielding pursuits.
- Shrew
- The Untamed One
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:22 am
Re: Erich von Stroheim
Alright, got some annoying version questions about the Wedding March. I just saw the Library of Congress print at the Harvard Film Archive, and while it for the most part looked great I thought there were a few scenes missing from when I had seen it several years before on VHS. Sure enough, looking at this version on youtube, the LoC was missing all the scenes between 1:22 (right after Zasu exclaims that she's never met the prince) to about 1:34 (where the butcher is dragging the pig in to slaughter).
This amounts to an extended scene of the old corn plaster magnate convincing his daughter that Nicki is in love with her, Nicki's parents convincing him to marry as he puts up some resistance (making him seem a bit less callous), Mitzi going into a church to pray, and a brief scene of Zasu considering her marriage alone. To make things more complicated, the youtube version runs 109 minutes, while the sources for the LoC say variously 113 or 115, but though I didn't time it, I felt it ran just a little shorter than that. While I haven't run through the whole of the youtube version again, a quick glance doesn't make me think much else is missing from either version, so I assume some of the runtime difference might be a PAL speed-up or film speed difference.
I know The Wedding March, like all Stroheim, has had its history of edits and troubles, but I wonder if anyone knows what's up with this considerable missing part? I understand that Stroheim tried to reconstruct the film in the 1950s, so perhaps the additional scenes come from that version? They do seem to be mainly about adding depth to the Zasu character and to Nicki's relationship with both girls and drag out the climax, which could be trying to set up more of the lost Honeymoon sequel that Stroheim was also reconstructing at the same time. That might mean the LoC version is a reproduction of the original release, meant more or less to stand on its own, as I understand.
It's possible that a projectionist screwed up and forgot to load a reel, but the edit seemed very clear and deliberate. Anyone have more knowledge and/or experience viewing the film that can explain these differences? I wonder if this is a possibility as to why Criterion hasn't released the edition of this that was rumored years ago (similar to Shanghai Express).
This amounts to an extended scene of the old corn plaster magnate convincing his daughter that Nicki is in love with her, Nicki's parents convincing him to marry as he puts up some resistance (making him seem a bit less callous), Mitzi going into a church to pray, and a brief scene of Zasu considering her marriage alone. To make things more complicated, the youtube version runs 109 minutes, while the sources for the LoC say variously 113 or 115, but though I didn't time it, I felt it ran just a little shorter than that. While I haven't run through the whole of the youtube version again, a quick glance doesn't make me think much else is missing from either version, so I assume some of the runtime difference might be a PAL speed-up or film speed difference.
I know The Wedding March, like all Stroheim, has had its history of edits and troubles, but I wonder if anyone knows what's up with this considerable missing part? I understand that Stroheim tried to reconstruct the film in the 1950s, so perhaps the additional scenes come from that version? They do seem to be mainly about adding depth to the Zasu character and to Nicki's relationship with both girls and drag out the climax, which could be trying to set up more of the lost Honeymoon sequel that Stroheim was also reconstructing at the same time. That might mean the LoC version is a reproduction of the original release, meant more or less to stand on its own, as I understand.
It's possible that a projectionist screwed up and forgot to load a reel, but the edit seemed very clear and deliberate. Anyone have more knowledge and/or experience viewing the film that can explain these differences? I wonder if this is a possibility as to why Criterion hasn't released the edition of this that was rumored years ago (similar to Shanghai Express).
- LouieD
- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:13 am
Re: Erich von Stroheim
So nice to see they are running "The Merry-Go-Round", it's one of my favorites and an underrated Von Stroheim. The story is Von was removed from this picture early on to be replaced by Rupert Julian, but I don't know if it's true as the film plays just like a Stroheim.hearthesilence wrote:Regardless, Film Forum here in NYC is showing 35mm prints of Stroheim's major works.
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- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
Re: Erich von Stroheim
MoMA and the San Francisco Film Festival have made a new 4K resto of "Foolish Wives".
More info here: https://www.nitrateville.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29454
In one of the posts of that thread, Dennis Doros mentions a resto of Queen Kelly, ready at the end of 2021.
See also: https://silentfilm.org/2020-san-francis ... -festival/
More info here: https://www.nitrateville.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29454
In one of the posts of that thread, Dennis Doros mentions a resto of Queen Kelly, ready at the end of 2021.
See also: https://silentfilm.org/2020-san-francis ... -festival/
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- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
Re: Erich von Stroheim
News from April 2020 on the new Foolish Wives resto:
https://altaonline.com/foolish-wives/
" The new, restored version will come as close as possible to the two-hour original, complete with hand-colored elements during the fiery climax."
Approx. 140 minutes.
https://altaonline.com/foolish-wives/
" The new, restored version will come as close as possible to the two-hour original, complete with hand-colored elements during the fiery climax."
Approx. 140 minutes.
- Blutarsky
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:09 pm
Re: Erich von Stroheim
I just stumbled upon a copy of The Merry Widow for sale at my local record store. It is a Warner Archive DVD, and on rewatching it, I can’t help but wonder what really is preventing major releases of Von Stroheim’s material.
Hasn’t it been speculated that Criterion has the rights to The Wedding March? I am more shocked that Greed, probably one of the ten-or-so most important/well-known silent films hasn’t had a proper release in the UK, or USA since VHS.
Hasn’t it been speculated that Criterion has the rights to The Wedding March? I am more shocked that Greed, probably one of the ten-or-so most important/well-known silent films hasn’t had a proper release in the UK, or USA since VHS.
- dustybooks
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:52 am
- Location: Wilmington, NC
Re: Erich von Stroheim
The Wedding March was a Criterion rumor going back to early DVD days, I don’t know if there’s much hope for it at this stage; I hope I’m wrong because it’s one of my favorite MIA titles.
I think Greed, like the other big MGM silents, was thrown asunder when the bottom fell out on the mainstream home video market. The Big Parade was all that squeaked out, though you can buy Greed digitally which I guess is something. But I really hope the ball gets rolling on physical releases of these.
I think Greed, like the other big MGM silents, was thrown asunder when the bottom fell out on the mainstream home video market. The Big Parade was all that squeaked out, though you can buy Greed digitally which I guess is something. But I really hope the ball gets rolling on physical releases of these.
- DeprongMori
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:59 am
- Location: San Francisco
Re: Erich von Stroheim
The Wedding March received a screening at San Francisco Silent Film Festival last year. It was not a bad presentation at all.
- ianthemovie
- Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:51 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Re: Erich von Stroheim
I think somewhere in the Warner Archive thread it was confirmed that they are working on a Blu-ray of Greed based on the restoration that was done in 1998 or thereabouts, but that this presents challenges because it was not done in HD. Either way I took it as an encouraging sign that Warner hasn't forgotten about this and they're trying to figure out a way to put it out. I think they confirmed that The Crowd will be coming too at some point.
- Blutarsky
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:09 pm
Re: Erich von Stroheim
I purchased the Greed digital of the 90s Turnerianthemovie wrote: ↑Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:23 pmI think somewhere in the Warner Archive thread it was confirmed that they are working on a Blu-ray of Greed based on the restoration that was done in 1998 or thereabouts, but that this presents challenges because it was not done in HD. Either way I took it as an encouraging sign that Warner hasn't forgotten about this and they're trying to figure out a way to put it out. I think they confirmed that The Crowd will be coming too at some point.
reconstruction way back in 2013. I rewatched at the very beginning of lockdown, and while I would easily put Greed in my top 5, the reconstruction is nowhere near as good as the Thalberg cut. I know that may sound sacrilegious, but two hours of stills becomes weary. I hope Warner does include both and publish their trove of silent features.
As for The Wedding March, Foolish Wives, and Queen Kelly, are they all with Universal/Paramount? If so, could we expect Kino or Eureka’s MoC to pursue a release?
- dustybooks
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:52 am
- Location: Wilmington, NC
Re: Erich von Stroheim
Foolish Wives is out from Kino, and they issued Queen Kelly on DVD (long out of print) so I'm just guessing here but I'd imagine they lost the rights at some point, as it seems like a no-brainer for them.
Wedding March is Paramount and as far as I know they still own it.
Wedding March is Paramount and as far as I know they still own it.
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- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
Re: Erich von Stroheim
2021 Blind Husbands restoration from the Austrian Filmmuseum:
https://www.filmmuseum.at/en/collection ... d_husbands
The restoration adds restored image, English intertitles and digitally reconstructed tinting and toning to the Filmmuseum München DVD edition of the Austrian version of Blind Husbands.
On Dec. 13, 2021 the film will be shown on the Arte TV channel in France.
Perhaps it will also be shown later on the Arte website (films not available in all regions), currently (until Nov. 23, 2021) showing Hoffmannn´s Erzählungen (1923), among other films:
https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/095681-00 ... -hoffmann/
https://www.filmmuseum.at/en/collection ... d_husbands
The restoration adds restored image, English intertitles and digitally reconstructed tinting and toning to the Filmmuseum München DVD edition of the Austrian version of Blind Husbands.
On Dec. 13, 2021 the film will be shown on the Arte TV channel in France.
Perhaps it will also be shown later on the Arte website (films not available in all regions), currently (until Nov. 23, 2021) showing Hoffmannn´s Erzählungen (1923), among other films:
https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/095681-00 ... -hoffmann/
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- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
Re: Erich von Stroheim
Update: the new resto of Blind Husbands is showing at MoMA, Jan. 15, 2022.Stefan Andersson wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:19 pm2021 Blind Husbands restoration from the Austrian Filmmuseum:
https://www.filmmuseum.at/en/collection ... d_husbands
The restoration adds restored image, English intertitles and digitally reconstructed tinting and toning to the Filmmuseum München DVD edition of the Austrian version of Blind Husbands.
On Dec. 13, 2021 the film will be shown on the Arte TV channel in France.
Perhaps it will also be shown later on the Arte website (films not available in all regions), currently (until Nov. 23, 2021) showing Hoffmannn´s Erzählungen (1923), among other films:
https://www.arte.tv/fr/videos/095681-00 ... -hoffmann/
Source: https://filmmuseum.at/en/collections/fi ... d_husbands (scroll down)
See also restoration info here:
https://timsrayok.wordpress.com/2012/06 ... -versions/
https://timsrayok.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/bhen.pdf
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: Erich von Stroheim
MoMA screened this earlier in the festival, but I was able to catch the second (and last) screening today. Beautiful restoration job, if it ever gets a proper Blu-ray release, I think people are going to be very pleased.Stefan Andersson wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 3:17 pmUpdate: the new resto of Blind Husbands is showing at MoMA, Jan. 15, 2022.
Source: https://filmmuseum.at/en/collections/fi ... d_husbands (scroll down)
See also restoration info here:
https://timsrayok.wordpress.com/2012/06 ... -versions/
https://timsrayok.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/bhen.pdf
I honestly can't remember if I've seen this before - it doesn't reach the lofty heights of Foolish Wives or Greed, but it does feel like the kind of film that carries a lot more weight when you can recognize the fundamental elements it lays out for the greater films ahead.
Also I bumped into Mike Reiss of The Simpsons on the way out - again, he must be a real cinephile. This time I said hello and that I grew up on the show, and he seemed genuinely happy to be complimented, commenting that it was the second time in two days that someone's recognized him despite wearing a mask both times. He was an important part of the show during its best years, but I guess when you're generally not heard or seen on camera (except on DVD commentaries), you don't expect to draw any attention.
- Roscoe
- Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:40 pm
- Location: NYC
Re: Erich von Stroheim
The San Francisco Silent Film Festival will start its 2022 lineup with a new restoration of FOOLISH WIVES, which more than justifies the trip as far as I'm concerned.
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- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
Re: Erich von Stroheim
Program for the 2022 San Francisco Silent Film Festival is up. The new resto of Foolish Wives runs 147 minutes:
https://silentfilm.org/event/foolish-wives/
https://silentfilm.org/event/foolish-wives/
- Roscoe
- Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:40 pm
- Location: NYC
Re: Erich von Stroheim
And the very next day they're running the new restoration of BLIND HUSBANDS. Very excited to see them both. And much else besides at this year's festival. Hoping that the upcoming "restoration" of the Castro Theater won't be too destructive, and that future Silent Film Festivals will be able to continue there.
- DeprongMori
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:59 am
- Location: San Francisco
Re: Erich von Stroheim
What is the best available version of Greed at present, either physical disk or streaming?
- andyli
- Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:46 pm
Re: Erich von Stroheim
It may not be wide-known but blu-ray.com does host a DVD database as well. According to it, there are a French DVD and a Spanish DVD of Greed available.
- DeprongMori
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:59 am
- Location: San Francisco
Re: Erich von Stroheim
Thanks. I’ve seen listings for the various DVD imports. What I want to know is what is the best option among the various sub-optimal choices. More personal recommendation.
- ianthemovie
- Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:51 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Re: Erich von Stroheim
I am partial to the 4-hour reconstruction, which can be rented from Warner Bros. directly through YouTube. The music score is first-rate and I think it succeeds in giving a sense of the full epic scope of the story. von Stroheim really wanted Trina and Mac's story to be told in counterpoint to the two minor subplots involving other couples, something that only really comes through in the 4-hour version (and I happen to love the sordid nature of the subplot involving the Macappas). I'm also not really bothered by the use of the still images throughout, though I guess some people find this hard to get past.
Can't speak for any of the DVD versions. The only other way I've seen Greed was projected on 35mm (the 2.5 hour version, obviously) with a live score, which was a great experience too-- so the shorter cut of the movie still "works," I just prefer the longer cut even though the presentation is not optimal.
Can't speak for any of the DVD versions. The only other way I've seen Greed was projected on 35mm (the 2.5 hour version, obviously) with a live score, which was a great experience too-- so the shorter cut of the movie still "works," I just prefer the longer cut even though the presentation is not optimal.
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: Erich von Stroheim
I still have an HD download I purchased from iTunes. (I used a gift card, but IIRC, it was $10.) Not ideal, but it's one reason I haven't been so frustrated with a lack of a BD release - at least I have a good copy of what they have. I'm actually impressed that the iTunes HD downloads look so good despite the file size. Same with a few other titles I have. Whatever codec or compression logarithm they're using is pretty amazing.
- dekadetia
- was Born Innocent
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:57 pm
- Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Erich von Stroheim
Coincidentally just watched the four-hour cut of this yesterday and I'm glad I did. For one thing, it's the best quality copy of the theatrical cut footage out there (in fact there's a fanedit floating around on backchannels that reassembles the theatrical cut from the footage in the extended cut), but for another, the approach of using Ken Burnsian pans over stills combined with intertitles actually manages to stay very engaging, and the deleted subplots go a long way toward enhancing the themes of the main story (even if there were a few times in the four hour stretch where I felt it meandering). Furthermore, since every time the film switches to stills, you know you're seeing deleted material, it's very easy to get a sense of what the theatrical cut is like even if you're diving into the extended cut as a first watch.
Improvements could certainly be made, nevertheless; this film turns 100 in two years, and it would be really nice if someone could get both cuts looking their best for the anniversary.
Improvements could certainly be made, nevertheless; this film turns 100 in two years, and it would be really nice if someone could get both cuts looking their best for the anniversary.