Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

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mfunk9786
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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#26 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:13 pm

Computer, show me the worst possible thing you could show me today

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Persona
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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#27 Post by Persona » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:20 pm

Truly baffling.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#28 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:21 pm

I'm gonna get blasted off this forum and into the sun for bringing gender up, but I would only have any interest in seeing this film remade by a gay/queer woman if it had to be remade at all. Gillespie can provide absolutely no further insight into the themes of this picture that weren't already explored at great length by Trier last year and therefore it's just going to be a very expensive dub for people who can't bear the sight of subtitles. My guess, much like the Ron Howard Cache remake, is that this never gets off the ground.

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knives
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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#29 Post by knives » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:51 pm

I don't have a problem with him directing it ipso facto, but I do wonder how the distinctly Norwegian parts would be altered to fit in an American context. American Christianity is radically different and I fear the movie taken in an American direction would ignore that for a more generic accepting yourself story.

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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#30 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:30 pm

Indeed. And there is nuance within even that which can easily be simplified into American right wing born again religious symbolism that will likely fall incredibly flat, if his portrayal of, say, domestic violence in I, Tonya is any indication.

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knives
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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#31 Post by knives » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:51 pm

I'm on team I, Tonya and feel the depiction of domestic violence there is appropriate for the material, but then again Mr. Woodcock.

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barryconvex
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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#32 Post by barryconvex » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:55 am

I really loved this and was particularly fascinated by Thelma's relationship with her father which ties in with one of mfunk's original questions:
SpoilerShow
I thought Trond's death was punishment for his pride as much as it was for his treatment of his mother (in law) or anything else. For a man who has embraced religion, how can he not recognize and attempt to understand and nurture the powers of his own daughter? Wouldn't a religious man see her abilities as miraculous or proof of the divine? His arrogance in trying to suppress his daughter's abilities when he should be helping her develop them will be his undoing and it's his unwillingness or inability to create an atmosphere of acceptance in his own home that creates not just a child ill prepared for the early adult stage of her life but one who has a tenuous grip on an ability she doesn't fully comprehend. His attitude towards Thelma also suggests he has subscribed to the lowest forms of christianity. Like those people or sects who would replace love with fear and intolerance in the belief they're proving themselves more devout or worthier than those who more tolerant, he's oblivious to his shortcomings, allowing mistrust to dictate the course of his life and his child's upbringing. It could also be he's adopted christianity merely as subterfuge, something he has little interest in but uses as a means to keep Thelma in denial of her true self and in a state of unease. Or maybe he just sees her as something evil, but if that was the case he would've shot her when he had the chance. Sending Thelma out into the world, believing he's "cured" her is the height of his delusional arrogance. Whatever his intentions were, his methods are dubious and destined to backfire once Thelma gained some perspective. The girl needed an understanding touch, especially during her most vulnerable girlhood years and instead she's only offered repression from the people who should be offering unconditional love. His neglect, manipulation and psychological cruelty towards something he should see as one of god's great miracles can't go unpunished. I'm not saying he deserved to die but...actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I can be a little more forgiving of her mother even if her reaction to her daughter's power is much harsher. She's recently given birth to a second child who will naturally use up a large portion of her attention. She isn't as readily available to Thelma but it's not done out of spite (and Trond should be there to pick up the slack) and any mother who's caring for an infant would be terrified and defensive towards any threat, even one from her own older child. I found her more of a sympathetic figure only because I think her intolerance is rooted in motherly consternation as opposed to Trond's vainglorious arrogance. I haven't conclusively made up my mind about any of this and it's not because of some willful ambiguity on Trier's part, it's depth of characterization and the various interpretations of those characters and their actions is a big part of what makes the film so good. Those depths are best exemplified by Trier's choice to place Thelma in a same sex relationship, a reminder that she's a rich metaphor for the countless others whose early lives were nearly ruined by suffocating religious ritual, denial of affection and barbaric psychological treatments in attempts to "cure" the affliction of homosexuality.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#33 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:39 pm

I enjoyed reading that, barryconvex!

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barryconvex
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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#34 Post by barryconvex » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:52 am

I'm not sure it's totally coherent as I posted almost immediately after finishing the movie, something I try to avoid doing as my thoughts usually haven't settled, but thank you just the same..

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Re: Thelma (Joachim Trier, 2017)

#35 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:26 pm

It's a pleasure rereading this thread, which greatly helped me appreciate this film upon release, and on a revisit I was most struck by how in the space between intention and action of character lies not only a helpful/harmful polarization but the idea of belief as a form of trust/mistrust
SpoilerShow
The father seems to have adopted religious beliefs because people need some kind of faith and he has completely lost his toward all corporeal beings. He thinks he's engaging in a process of assisting Thelma rehabilitate but he doesn't actually believe in a human's capacity for rehabilitation, instead using divine intervention as a crutch to reinforce his own narrative that helps him defend the fear-based action of keeping her alive. This well-constructed build of well-intentioned but harmful dynamics peaks with a late-act 'chicken-or-egg' question when the father tells Thelma that Anja couldn't have loved her independently. He can't love her independently without God as support (or more aptly serving as safeguarded transparent plexiglass that blocks him from her, while allowing him to control her), so is this diagnosis just a projection that he embraces honestly via self deception? Can she not control her impulses at this age (and has made Anja disappear) because she actually can't possess this skill, or because her father has repressed her from trying- stunting her capacity for resilience and rehabilitation with imposed restraint?

If she was allowed freedom with open lines of communication to practice controlling her power as she moved through normal child development, perhaps she would have the kind of confidence she actualizes so easily in the end, and I think that ease hints optimistically at the power of a human's capability for rehabilitation, even without supports (healthy parental figures or God). If this idea was a projection, it's very possible that Anja actually authentically loves Thelma and Thelma's own self-doubt perpetrated by her father's mistrust is what leads to dysregulation and making Anja disappear, as others have mentioned allegorically similar to repressed sexuality. In that case, the father's repression has colored in Thelma, and our, perspective the entire film, because he created her prison rather than her powers' 'untamable nature' - since they likely were very controllable, and statically stuck in a state of early childhood development from deep-rooted poisoned trust in herself.

The ambiguity at the end is rich (the fantasy of kissing Anja in the pool, the cell phone ringing as Thelma self-actualizes and now finds that trust in herself and what she wants) because it's still unclear when we see them embrace in reality outside of those foreshadowed imaginings whether this love is forced by Thelma or the degree to which her power impacts the union. At the risk of repelling some with this reading, I think the beauty of her solidified self-concept is that it doesn't actually matter within the internal logic of the sci-fi romance. If being in love is a kind of spell that carries with it its own unique experience, inclusive only to its participants within the dynamic, then the degree to which Thelma's powers are binding them is superfluous because if the feelings are mutually and reciprocally felt then it is subjectively authentic, and love rejects any objective sense of authenticity by definition. Anja believes she's in love with Thelma, so she is, and Thelma chooses to believe she's honestly in love with Anja after rejecting her father's perception on her 'illness' -so therefore it's an honest transaction (similar to how the film has set up a red herring question at the start to arrive at a place of harmony: it doesn't matter whether God or science created life, life still exists).

Now, if Thelma was intentionally abusing Anja with her powers, that would change everything, but nothing in the context of the film's empathy can yield that reading with fair play. Her desire to 'believe' in her love as a higher power, and in herself, is the leap of faith she takes and the film demands that we meet her with that trust she was deprived of for so long. She deserves it.

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