John Ford
- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
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Re: John Ford
Finally saw what this was. Way after MY time. Never encountered it.movielocke wrote:hah. I had that book too.
On another topic -- anyone think that Zanuck actually _improved_ Clementine by his major re-editing?
- kingofthejungle
- Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:25 am
Re: John Ford
I prefer the Pre-Release version. Aside from the goofy ass insert of the kiss that spoils the ending of the Theatrical cut, I think the extra space for character business and atmosphere in the earlier cut creates a more lyrical, contemplative flow that's entirely appropriate. IIRC, the score is much subtler in the earlier version as well. I think Zanuck's choices might have made it a more commercial picture (as did his ending to The Grapes of Wrath), but I prefer Ford's by a mile.Michael Kerpan wrote:On another topic -- anyone think that Zanuck actually _improved_ Clementine by his major re-editing?
- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
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Re: John Ford
It seems Zanuck cut out almost 20 minutes -- I wonder what all disappeared? My sense is that Ford preferred to establish atmosphere (and rhythm) with local color/environmental shots that took a little time to develop -- and that Zanuck wanted to cut right to the chase, using very pushy musical scoring to make up for what was cut.
Seen tonight -- Young Mr. Lincoln. Quite wonderful -- though the proto-Perry Masonesque trial resolution was a bit much.
Seen tonight -- Young Mr. Lincoln. Quite wonderful -- though the proto-Perry Masonesque trial resolution was a bit much.
- kingofthejungle
- Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:25 am
Re: John Ford
I think you've got the right idea about Ford and Zanuck's different approaches to Clementine. I've never sat down and done a direct comparison between the two (which might be interesting), but I think one can certainly feel the difference between the two versions.
Young Mr. Lincoln is great, a film that grows on me every time I see it. For all the ink spilled on Wayne and Monument Valley, Ford's essence as an artist is found in the relaxed, digressive portraits of small communities (like Young Mr. Lincoln, and The Sun Shines Bright).
Young Mr. Lincoln is great, a film that grows on me every time I see it. For all the ink spilled on Wayne and Monument Valley, Ford's essence as an artist is found in the relaxed, digressive portraits of small communities (like Young Mr. Lincoln, and The Sun Shines Bright).
- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
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Re: John Ford
> Ford's essence as an artist is found in the relaxed, digressive portraits of small communities
> (like Young Mr. Lincoln, and The Sun Shines Bright).
Four Sons, also -- even though in a German setting.
> (like Young Mr. Lincoln, and The Sun Shines Bright).
Four Sons, also -- even though in a German setting.
- AMalickLensFlare
- Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:22 pm
- Location: Las Vegas
Re: John Ford
And don't forget How Green Was My Valley.Michael Kerpan wrote:> Ford's essence as an artist is found in the relaxed, digressive portraits of small communities
> (like Young Mr. Lincoln, and The Sun Shines Bright).
Four Sons, also -- even though in a German setting.
- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
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Re: John Ford
Definitely.AMalickLensFlare wrote:And don't forget How Green Was My Valley.
- Askew
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:23 pm
Re: John Ford
Nor The Quiet Man and The Long Grey Line (my two favourite Ford's along with How Green Was My Valley).AMalickLensFlare wrote:And don't forget How Green Was My Valley.Michael Kerpan wrote:> Ford's essence as an artist is found in the relaxed, digressive portraits of small communities
> (like Young Mr. Lincoln, and The Sun Shines Bright).
Four Sons, also -- even though in a German setting.
- kingofthejungle
- Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:25 am
Re: John Ford
I think The Long Gray Line might be Ford's most underrated film. It's so rich and evocative - and has a much more nuanced and ambiguous view of the military than one might think at first glance. The broad comedy bits turn some people off, but they seem to be an important part of Ford's tonal strategy; The comedy has to be as big as the tragedy is deep. Whenever I watch the film, it keeps me on an emotional razor's edge between laughter and tears.
- FrauBlucher
- Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm
- Location: Greenwich Village
Re: John Ford
I would put Pilgrimage (1933) in this group as well. It starts out in small town America and then moves to Paris. If you haven't seen it, I will not give the reason for the geographical shift. But I totally recommend it.Michael Kerpan wrote:> Ford's essence as an artist is found in the relaxed, digressive portraits of small communities
> (like Young Mr. Lincoln, and The Sun Shines Bright).
Four Sons, also -- even though in a German setting.
For me, this is one of the most devastatingly heartfelt films I've seen by anyone. I'm usually not a fan of sentimentality, but Ford brings this emotion from a very dark place, which is acceptable for me when it's nurtured and allowed to grow out of a very real human tragedy. Clearly a Ford strong suit in many of his films.
- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
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Re: John Ford
Watched Steamboat Round the Bend (which I enjoyed) -- but have a technical question. Was rear screen projection already being used by 1935? Some of the shots on the steamboat, with Rogers and Shirley in the foreground, and the river bank moving in the background looked like they could have been projecting the background -- but other times it wasn't as clear...
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
Re: John Ford
It was almost certainly available. I remember some early talkies with people sitting in a car and driving through the countryside where the latter was clearly projected. Just don't ask me about those films' titles.
- Roger Ryan
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:04 pm
- Location: A Midland town spread and darkened into a city
Re: John Ford
KING KONG (1933) is full of rear-projection (among other similar effects). Reportedly, proper rear-projection began near the advent of sound films around 1930.
- John Edmond
- Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:35 pm
Re: John Ford
Rear projection debuted with Borzage's Liliom in 1930. But even before then, there were equivalents.
- Tommaso
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am
Re: John Ford
Right, I was thinking about the work with miniatures in Murnau's "Der letzte Mann" and "Sunrise", too, but am not sure whether this was rear projection in the strict sense of the word.
- movielocke
- Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:44 am
Re: John Ford
I caught up with some other Ford films:
Three Godfathers is warm and corny and more or less terrible, the whole thing felt tonally off to me throughout. Nothing ever quite gels in the film and it hammers with a heavy hand continually and in the worst ways. It was amusing the backflips of plotting the film had to perform to explain why the baby didn't starve right away, but this only led to more eyerolling from myself.
The Wings of Eagles at least the first half hour, is possibly one of the worst things Ford ever did. The comedy is off and tone deaf, there is no romantic chemistry, the patronizing patriotizing is beyond grating and unbearable, nothing works.
Then John Wayne falls down the stairs and looks like he broke his neck, I laughed because it was in keeping with the poor tone of the humor to have a bad fall down the stairs and break your neck joke right after a romantic reconciliation and implied sex. I thought, "if this were a better film he would have broken his neck, instead of using this scene as a cheap gag," and then the film reveals the character actually did break his neck. Holy Shit what an out of nowhere hit that was, did Ford pepper the early part of the film with bad gags just to pull this shocking inversion on the audience? I don't think so, but the film swiftly becomes a completely different beast after John Wayne is paralyzed (and Wayne gives a fine performance, btw, relatively restrained compared to the antics of many of the costars in the film). The extremely long sequence in which he discovers he is only partially paralyzed and slowly regains some very minor motor control is the highlight of the film and is some truly impressive filmmaking as Ford expertly manages the audiences expectations and beliefs, moving you through an up and down roller coaster of initially expecting some Pollyanna magic, then accepting that no the movie is surprisingly going to take a real world approach and admit he's paralyzed, to being surprised that he retains some nerve function and then a little bit thrilled at the agonizing slow progression to a facsimile of walking, it's a fine sequence. The rest of the film isn't worth much, and it becomes unsalvageable with a plethora of hollywood, reunite with da wife, and world war II subplots, but that twenty minute segment in the middle is surprisingly excellent.
Sergeant Rutledge is a film that I'd always heard favorable mentions of but never knew much about, I'd sort of forgotten it was even a Ford film.
The film is a stunning near masterpiece. It's got some minor elements that don't quite work or undermine it, but it's a spectacular piece of storytelling from Ford's darker period. This film makes a superb companion to Two Rode Together or the Man Who Shot Liberty Valence in the way that it continues the skepticism towards romanticizing the Old West. There's a sense of outrage towards the casual injustice and prejudice of humanity in general, there's a bitterness to the piece that belies the happy ending. If the film took the To Kill a Mockingbird tack with its ending, it would be a great film, possibly even a masterpiece, but it never quite reaches that level of honesty.
Three Godfathers is warm and corny and more or less terrible, the whole thing felt tonally off to me throughout. Nothing ever quite gels in the film and it hammers with a heavy hand continually and in the worst ways. It was amusing the backflips of plotting the film had to perform to explain why the baby didn't starve right away, but this only led to more eyerolling from myself.
The Wings of Eagles at least the first half hour, is possibly one of the worst things Ford ever did. The comedy is off and tone deaf, there is no romantic chemistry, the patronizing patriotizing is beyond grating and unbearable, nothing works.
Then John Wayne falls down the stairs and looks like he broke his neck, I laughed because it was in keeping with the poor tone of the humor to have a bad fall down the stairs and break your neck joke right after a romantic reconciliation and implied sex. I thought, "if this were a better film he would have broken his neck, instead of using this scene as a cheap gag," and then the film reveals the character actually did break his neck. Holy Shit what an out of nowhere hit that was, did Ford pepper the early part of the film with bad gags just to pull this shocking inversion on the audience? I don't think so, but the film swiftly becomes a completely different beast after John Wayne is paralyzed (and Wayne gives a fine performance, btw, relatively restrained compared to the antics of many of the costars in the film). The extremely long sequence in which he discovers he is only partially paralyzed and slowly regains some very minor motor control is the highlight of the film and is some truly impressive filmmaking as Ford expertly manages the audiences expectations and beliefs, moving you through an up and down roller coaster of initially expecting some Pollyanna magic, then accepting that no the movie is surprisingly going to take a real world approach and admit he's paralyzed, to being surprised that he retains some nerve function and then a little bit thrilled at the agonizing slow progression to a facsimile of walking, it's a fine sequence. The rest of the film isn't worth much, and it becomes unsalvageable with a plethora of hollywood, reunite with da wife, and world war II subplots, but that twenty minute segment in the middle is surprisingly excellent.
Sergeant Rutledge is a film that I'd always heard favorable mentions of but never knew much about, I'd sort of forgotten it was even a Ford film.
The film is a stunning near masterpiece. It's got some minor elements that don't quite work or undermine it, but it's a spectacular piece of storytelling from Ford's darker period. This film makes a superb companion to Two Rode Together or the Man Who Shot Liberty Valence in the way that it continues the skepticism towards romanticizing the Old West. There's a sense of outrage towards the casual injustice and prejudice of humanity in general, there's a bitterness to the piece that belies the happy ending. If the film took the To Kill a Mockingbird tack with its ending, it would be a great film, possibly even a masterpiece, but it never quite reaches that level of honesty.
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: John Ford
The Museum of the Moving Image is holding a mini retrospective on John Ford, which is already several days into its run. Most of his greatest films are being shown, all on film prints. Definitely worth checking out.
In the meantime, is it just me or has there been a resurgence of criticism against John Ford, falling back on the lazy, shallow argument that his films are terribly racist works? Well, yeah, racism plays a role in his films, but unlike many other commercial films of the same era that also had problems with race, his films grow increasingly aware of it and have a lot to say about racism, not just about the times Ford's films were being made but the nature of racism and its acceptance among some cultures/populations in general. The A.V. Club just published (or maybe revived) an embarrassing piece claiming that Tarantino was on to something, completely oblivious to Kent Jones surgical demolition of Tarantino's argument. And across social media, I've seen the occasional post worthy of politicians offering soundbites to the media - that is, lots of fire and accusations, but completely devoid of any careful or intelligent analysis of what we're really seeing in Ford's films.
In the meantime, is it just me or has there been a resurgence of criticism against John Ford, falling back on the lazy, shallow argument that his films are terribly racist works? Well, yeah, racism plays a role in his films, but unlike many other commercial films of the same era that also had problems with race, his films grow increasingly aware of it and have a lot to say about racism, not just about the times Ford's films were being made but the nature of racism and its acceptance among some cultures/populations in general. The A.V. Club just published (or maybe revived) an embarrassing piece claiming that Tarantino was on to something, completely oblivious to Kent Jones surgical demolition of Tarantino's argument. And across social media, I've seen the occasional post worthy of politicians offering soundbites to the media - that is, lots of fire and accusations, but completely devoid of any careful or intelligent analysis of what we're really seeing in Ford's films.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: John Ford
The AV Club has turned into a Tumblr-esque NPR Liberal circlejerk haven, much like Cracked and other click-bait sites, don't worry about it too much. Their piece the other day mocking Dustin Hoffman for making fairly innocuous remarks on the basis that he was old was one of the many signs that I myself am getting too old for this shit
EDIT: That Jones essay is great, by the way. Thanks for sharing
EDIT: That Jones essay is great, by the way. Thanks for sharing
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: John Ford
It's not just politics. I feel like the AV Club has precipitously dropped in quality with the most inane arguments about anything. You know how some people are prone to latching on to one detail as a way of dismissing an entire film in the most idiotic and arrogant way? (Usually because it seems to be the easiest thing to do rather than admit you don't get the film/album and need time to think everything over.) Their criticism is gradually becoming that.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: John Ford
I read an interesting theory the other day (can't remember where) that the reason why AV Club and other sites are dropping in quality and taking a hard left turn is because the kind of people who tend to hold kneejerk views like these are also the ones willing to provide content for websites for nothing or next to nothing, unlike professionals who demand more because they deliver more.
- Drucker
- Your Future our Drucker
- Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 9:37 am
Re: John Ford
The retrospective does look like a treat, and I'm looking forward to seeing The Searchers on the big screen/in a film print. If only Queens wasn't such a schlep!
I don't think what you're seeing is necessarily limited to Ford. I got into a Twitter debate about whether or not Psycho was transphobic, and while perhaps I didn't make the best argument that it wasn't, the person on the other end basically thought that any film that depicted cross-dressing at all was inherently transphobic.
I don't think what you're seeing is necessarily limited to Ford. I got into a Twitter debate about whether or not Psycho was transphobic, and while perhaps I didn't make the best argument that it wasn't, the person on the other end basically thought that any film that depicted cross-dressing at all was inherently transphobic.
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
- Location: NYC
Re: John Ford
Ridiculous. If they're just going to dwell on how a film doesn't reflect political trends from our current era, they're not really engaging with the film, just imposing a demand on it with no relation to context.
I saw The Searchers at MoMI not too long ago and posted about it over in the film's own thread. Looked great - if it's the same print, you'll be in for a treat!
I saw The Searchers at MoMI not too long ago and posted about it over in the film's own thread. Looked great - if it's the same print, you'll be in for a treat!
- John Hodson
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Re: John Ford
MovieMail are at it too - http://www.moviemail.com/blog/hollywood ... Searchers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It really is the definition of ridiculous; the comparison with Birth of a Nation is just too ugly, the dismissal of Rio Grande as a 'shamefully xenophobic diatribe' is beyond daft. Fort Apache - perhaps Ford's most powerfully complex political statement to that date - gets namechecked, but nothing more.
It really is the definition of ridiculous; the comparison with Birth of a Nation is just too ugly, the dismissal of Rio Grande as a 'shamefully xenophobic diatribe' is beyond daft. Fort Apache - perhaps Ford's most powerfully complex political statement to that date - gets namechecked, but nothing more.
- FrauBlucher
- Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm
- Location: Greenwich Village
Re: John Ford
Political correctness has become an overwhelming reaction in society that it puts almost everything being judged in a vacuum. It's a shame that Ford has to be viewed and critiqued this way.